Rules changes for 06

[Shawn Johnson]

I would like to make this thread just for a list of all the changes for all the different combos.

I will make a list of what I saw and then if anyone can add to it till it has all the changes..

Shawn

[Jonathan Paulk]

Already did this Shawn....

[Mike Washington]

Stock Batter Location and Battery
No "Wolfe" Sway Bars
Must Have OEM Sway bar in Place
Steel Flywheel Mandated 15lb min
No Spools Only Tracion Lock types
All Steel Componets
No Lite Weight Gear
3.90 or lower Numerically for 4V & 3V
StockWidth rear end +/- 1.0 inch
No Aluminum Pressure Plates
No Shaft Mount Rockers
Seel Retainers and Locks
2V Heads can be Ported +100lbs
Stock OEM Oil Pan
No Scrapers, Windage tray ETC
Tail Pipes must go over Rear End (What about Cobras 4V?)
313ci for 5.0L
291ci for Mods
15lbs per ci over


Mike Washington

[Jonathan Paulk]

whoa!!! HEY MIKE!!!

BATTERY/CHARGING SYSTEM
BATTERY: Full-size OEM-style battery must be located in the stock location in the engine compartment. Only a single battery may be present in the vehicle during competition. Charging systems must be functional and crank driven by the factory style 6 rib serpentine belt.

TAILPIPE & EXHAUST RULES: Full exhaust system required. Tailpipes must be in and exit in the factory location. Tailpipes must follow factory design, must go up over rearend housing and exit at rear valance.

1.18e) RETAINERS: Steel retainers required.

1.18h) ROCKER ARMS: Stud or pedestal mount rocker arms accepted. Shaft rocker prohibited. Stud girdle is prohibited.

Standard Ford OEM factory-replacement-style single disc diaphragm clutch required, 10.0” minimum diameter. Steel pressure plate minimum of 10.0”-inch in diameter is required. Aluminum may not be utilized in pressure plate

REAREND: Ford 7.5-inch, or 8.8-inchrearend required. Rearend must be stock width for model year of car +/- 1.0-inch.

GEARS: Gears must be full weight, factory OEM-style replacement and may not be lightened, milled, or profiled. . Ratio may be different than stock. Ratio restricted to 3.90 ratio or numerically lower for 4.6 3-valve & 4-valve Modular combinations.
AXLES: Aftermarket axles may be utilized. Gun-drilling prohibited. Flanges for axle must be solid and one-piece. Pocket milling and lightening prohibited.
DIFFERENTIAL: Spools and mini-spools prohibited. Commercially available, OEM production, standard street-style differential required. Approved aftermarket differentials include: Ford Traction-loc, Auburn Standard, Auburn Pro, Eaton, Detroit Locker, Detroit TruTrac. Electronic or air-controlled locking

2.12e) FLYWHEEL: Steel flywheel required. 15.0 lb minimum weight

3.4e) SWAY BARS & AIR BAGS: Factory rear sway bars required for model year. Must be bolted to control arms in OEM mounting fashion only. Aftermarket sway bars prohibited. Conventional-type air lift bag may be located in right rear spring only.

Base Weights:
ENGINE POWER ADDER BASE CI BASE WEIGHT
5.0L HO None 311 3,200
4.6 2V None 289 2,900
4.6 3V None 289 3,400
4.6 4V None 289 3,400

Maximum cubic inches––313 ci.

Deduct 250 lbs for Ford OEM Stock 5.0 HO E7 heads

2-valve combinations with ported heads add 100 pounds

[TMC]

Looks like I just have to change the oil pan and valve retainers, pull 25lbs from the car and I'll be legal...see you in 2006.

[Jonathan Paulk]

ummmm Good luck...I will be sitting behind the computer watching the results, racing locally saving money!! Instead of waisting money going slower.....

[5.0pilot]

How about 1 5/8" headers. Going to add up how much I'll have to spend to go slower. Nice.

[Shawn Johnson]

Here is what I found so far...


Base Weights:
ENGINE POWER ADDER BASE CI BASE WEIGHT
5.0L HO None 311 3,200 3150
4.6 2V None 289 2,900 2850
4.6 3V None 289 3,400 3200
4.6 4V None 289 3,400

- Note: 15 lbs/cu in penalty applies for cubic inches over weight break limit

- Engines are permitted a maximum of 313 cubic inches for 5.0L, and 291 for 4.6L.

- BATTERY: FULL-SIZE OEM-STYLE BATTERY MUST BE LOCATED IN THE STOCK LOCATION IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. ONLY A SINGLE BATTERY MAY BE PRESENT IN THE VEHICLE DURING COMPETITION.


- Radiator must be stock length and height or larger

- Tailpipes must follow factory design, must go up over rearend housing and exit at rear valance.

- (*Porting only permitted on 4.6L Ford OEM 2-Valve '96-'04 Cylinder Heads with 100 pound weight adder.)

- Minimum combustion chamber volume for 4.6L 2-valve heads is 40.0 cc’s.

- Minimum combustion chamber volume for 4.6L 4-valve heads will change to 50cc for 2007 racing season with a possible adjustment in minimum weight for competitive balance purposes.

- Rearend must be stock width for model year of car +/- 1.0-inch.

- Gears must be full weight, factory OEM-style replacement Ratio may be different than stock.

- RATIO RESTRICTED TO 3.90 RATIO OR NUMERICALLY LOWER FOR 4.6 3-VALVE & 4-VALVE MODULAR COMBINATIONS. AND MAY NOT BE LIGHTENED, MILLED, OR PROFILED.

- AXLES: Aftermarket axles may be utilized. Gun-drilling prohibited. Flanges for axle must be solid and one-piece. Pocket milling and lightening prohibited.

- Spools and mini-spools prohibited. Commercially available, OEM production, standard street-style differential required. Approved aftermarket differentials include: Ford Traction-loc, Auburn Standard, Auburn Pro, Eaton, Detroit Locker, Detroit TruTrac. Electronic or air-controlled locking mechanisms prohibited. All components utilized in rearend must be steel.

- FLYWHEEL: Steel flywheel required. 15.0 lb minimum weight

- CLUTCH: Standard Ford OEM factory-replacement-style single disc diaphragm clutch required, 10.0” minimum diameter. Steel pressure plate minimum of 10.0”-inch in diameter is required. Aluminum may not be utilized in pressure plate.

- Power assisted aftermarket steering system in stock location mandatory. Power steering pump must be fully functional.

- Only stock OEM Ford spindles are accepted. Aftermarket spindles are not permitted in Factory Stock. Any year OEM 1979-up Ford spindle permitted on 1979-2004 Mustangs

- Factory rear sway bars required for model year. Must be bolted to control arms in OEM mounting fashion only. Aftermarket sway bars prohibited. Conventional-type air lift bag may be located in right rear spring only.

[KenCook]

A 2v can win this class

[Jonathan Paulk]

So Shawn, what are your opinions?

[Jonathan Paulk]

A 2v can win this class


REY!!! WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!! Who knows Ken, but the rule do look appealing for a 2V. I am not racing next season in this class........

[KenCook]

lemme d/l the p/s rules and see.

[Shawn Johnson]

So Shawn, what are your opinions?


Right now not good...
We will review everything and try to post by the end of the weekend what the total cost would be to stay...
Right now it looks like all of us will need to build a new chassis...


Shawn

[KenCook]

2007?? typo i assume?

- Minimum combustion chamber volume for 4.6L 4-valve heads will change to 50cc for 2007 racing season with a possible adjustment in minimum weight for competitive balance purposes.

[Shawn Johnson]

2007?? typo i assume?


No I don't think so.... It just means the heads that the 4valves have right now will only be good for one more year..

Shawn

[KenCook]

gotcha
still taking all of this in right now.

No I don't think so.... It just means the heads that the 4valves have right now will only be good for one more year..

Shawn

[Shawn Johnson]

gotcha
still taking all of this in right now.


There is a lot to take in...
so much for "low cost changes"

[KenB]

No I don't think so.... It just means the heads that the 4valves have right now will only be good for one more year..

Shawn

Which means anyone building a 4V for 2006 is screwed. Unless they want to buy new heads after 1 year of racing. What a joke.

[jackchan]

what is the fastest anyone has gone in Factory stock this year? just wondering!

[Steve Moberley]

Man, they made my car legal for running this class. I can't frigging believe it.

If I can figure out a way to make the spec fuel not a giant hassle on a street car, you guys will be seeing me a little next year.

Interesting that they got rid of the 1.75 inch headers.

Who wants to be first to get their flywheel weighed? LOL!

Steve


Steve

[Jonathan Paulk]

Who wants to be first to get their flywheel weighed? LOL!

Steve


Steve

Or checked for a windage tray?:confused:

[vrtical]

This class looks like its starting over... Why did they hit the 3v soo hard, you would think the NMRA would want 05/06 models in the entry class. How the heck are you gonna get a 4V off the line with that weight/gear ratio. They might as well have banned it and done less changes to the class.

[KenCook]

about as fast as it took for half the class to read these rules and run to the next class.

what is the fastest anyone has gone in Factory stock this year? just wondering!

[MP John]

This class looks like its starting over... They might as well have banned it and done less changes to the class.

JL's goal was to eliminate the 4v's and the only way to do it without just saying it was to hit them hard on the rules. JL did a good job.

JL's goal is to bring the street racer into a starter class. Will the average street racer be excited to now have a class to race in?

[Bob Cosby]

Except for the gear rule, I think they did ok. I especially like the help they gave the 2Vs. Sucks that the shaved 4V heads will only be good for one more year, but cost aside, I can understand the reason for change, and in the end, I don't think it will slow the 4Vs down that much (my 4V heads were just barely under 50ccs).

BTW...Carlos doesn't need to change his rear suspension....except for going back to my old Truetrac, swapping gears, and pulling out one airbag. :)

[fiveoh]

Holly Crap im spent alot of money for nothing. im only 19 and i built a purpose built fs car last year and only ran one race at bowling green. and now my car is completely worthless! I had to get a job delivering pizza just to pay for that thing, it took a million pizza's to build it! if i would have known i was spending all that money for one race i would have maybe put a down payment on a house or somthing!:mad:

[Chalie Sr.]

:mad: Hello All!
Ok did they listen to anything we said? Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sure glad I have that old white car sitting in the garage! Only thing I have to do to that is move the battery back up front. I hope they didn't outlaw My Lentech! I know I should have waited to put the new car together! Probably be in O/c with both of them! This sucks!!!! Looks like Troy and Steve are happy! Ok thats 2 cars in the class! Anybody else?
Good Luck,
Chalie Rankin Sr.

[Dennis Merrow]

I looked at the rules and said WTF ! thanks NMRA for making my car not fit in the class anymore.

[Ranger50]

I'm out. All these rules FORCE me to build a new car, but that in turn means I have THREE illegal ones. All three of them are too far beyond the scope of the rules to remake them to fit the new prelim rules.

Oh well their loss, not mine. :)

Brian

[fiveoh]

do you think the rules are actually gonna stay like this?!
i hope every one is emailing mailto:tech@nmraracing.com and sending in their complaints about it. with enough complaints i wouldn't think they would not change the rules this drasticlly

[Jonathan Paulk]

The Pre-lim rules for '05 season didn't change that much last year.....Appearently they want this to be a entry level street car class....I WILL NOT SPEND MONEY TO GO SLOWER!!! Yep, it's their loss, and more money in my pocket!! Thanks NMRA!!!!

[Steve Moberley]

Oop:

This is new too (I think).

1.18k) SPRINGS: Single or dual steel valve springs required. Maximum valve spring pressure “on the seat” is 160 pounds for 5.0L combinations.


Steve

[Jamie R.]

I for one like the new rules very much!!! Yes, I will have much to change on my car but these rules get this class back to where it should have been and stayed when it was opened up. I just want to know when the final rules come out because right now these are just preliminary. Count me in for number three in this class!!!!!

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[Adam Smith]

The rule about combustion chamber size for 4V's in 07 leads me to believe that they want the 4V guys to get out there and buy the NEW products..ie 3V. Hell from the looks of it, a guy could be very competitive with a well put together 2V this year. I just don't know anyone thats building one?:confused: That 3.90 gear is gonna be like dragging an anchor in the 3V and 4V.

Adam

[Steve Moberley]

Awesome Jamie:

Hopefully, I'll get to see you and Ellen (and the twins-LOL!) next season.

It says they are taking recommendations through Monday. Be sure to let them know your opinion.

Steve

[ponie1992]

looks like the stangcrazy classifides will be full soon:confused:

[vossperformance]

I will have alot to do, spool, battery, anti-roll bar, retainers, tail pipes, windage tray, preasure plate, flywheel, oil pan, and many other things I havent seen but I also think this is in the right direction if they want a true entry level class. I will have to look at the rules closer but I may be #4.

[ponie1992]

3.4j) TORQUE BOXES: The Wild Rides “S” Box has been deemed an acceptable OEM Fox-body torque box replacement when installed in the OEM location as per Wild Rides official instructions. The only acceptable control arm mounting location for the upper control arms is the middle hole on the “S” box, which is the same as the stock OEM mounting location.


what about this. is this a new rule?

[KenCook]

No.
They allowed the S Box sometime early last season.

3.4j) TORQUE BOXES: The Wild Rides “S” Box has been deemed an acceptable OEM Fox-body torque box replacement when installed in the OEM location as per Wild Rides official instructions. The only acceptable control arm mounting location for the upper control arms is the middle hole on the “S” box, which is the same as the stock OEM mounting location.


what about this. is this a new rule?

[jbi66]

Well I think I can speak for Jeremy (fiveoh) and say we will no longer be running FS. It would take too much time and money to run slower. But I do see the NMRA's direction with this class. If these rule changes are to bring more entry level people into heads up racing, I think they will with the exception that the people who have pushed FS to where it is today will no longer be a part of it. We will most likely look towards PS or throw a glide in it and continue with our bracket racing career:D

[Jonathan Paulk]

Well I think I can speak for Jeremy (fiveoh) and say we will no longer be running FS. It would take too much time and money to run slower. But I do see the NMRA's direction with this class. If these rule changes are to bring more entry level people into heads up racing, I think they will with the exception that the people who have pushed FS to where it is today will no longer be a part of it. We will most likely look towards PS or throw a glide in it and continue with our bracket racing career:D

I agree.....There might actually be alot of cars in the class at Bradenton, IF NMRA gets the word around about the rules. I barely have enough money to get motor rebuilt, now I have to change axles, diff, flywheel, tailpipes, and whatever else the rules have changed....who knows when I will be able to afford to come back?????:confused: :(

[KenCook]

it might be easier to buy a junker and start over
how much you want ranger :D
j/k

[KenCook]

On a serious note,
Which new rules, in order, would make it easier on all combo's to run next year if they were removed?
Maybe if we can agree and submit the same the nmra might lift a few.

[Fast Orange]

Wow, thats alot of changes.... this class will definitly lose some current racers, granted they will be replaced with newcomers (someday). I may consider running the class if they drop the Battery Location thing (It's against my religion to have a front mounted battery LOL), but I'm not far off from being leagle unlike the top runners.

a RS NOS combo looks pretty sweet right about now... :D

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

The reason for our decision to race FS in 05 was that we liked the direction the NMRA was going with the class. It appears that they created the monster and now they are having second thoughts. After making a major investment in 05 and reviewing the rule changes, we will not be racing FS for 06. And that if these changes are put into affect.

[jeff conley]

as far as the axle rule (no two piece flanges) does this mean no c clip eliminators is this how they plan on making it easier to check for spooled race cars. Or am I just reading it wrong.

[Ian Mullane]

Looks like the NMRA figured out a way to bring the modular and pushrod guys together and agree on something.:) I think its rediculous to make this drastic of a change in the class with very little warning. We had no warning that they wanted to take this class in a different direction until about a week ago.

Guess I'll have to finish that 2V project I've been working on. At least the rules look appealing for them.

[KenCook]

Rey
Whats your paypal address :D

[Ryan Hecox]

The preliminary rule changes are to drastic for me to even consider fighting.

I am just heading to PS and start my new program there. It was nice racing with everyone at the events I attended and look forward to seeing you all at PRI and in 2006.

[Ian Mullane]

"1.20a) THROTTLE BODY: Only mass produced, commercially available throttle bodies permitted. Single throttle body in stock location required. Maximum throttle body size is 2.755” (70mm) for 5.0 & 4.6 2V & 3V applications."

How can a 3V run a 70 mm throttle body?




"1.17k) VALVE JOB: Any valve job permitted.

Permitted Cylinder Head List, Parts Number: These are the only permitted cylinder heads and part numbers for competition in this category. If your cylinder head is not on this list, it is prohibited.

1) Stock Ford OEM 5.0 HO Cast Iron Cylinder Heads. (*Deduct 250#)

2) FRPP/SVO GT-40 Cast Iron Cylinder Heads

3) FRPP/SVO GT-40P Cast Iron Cylinder Heads

4) Stock Ford OEM 4.6 Cylinder Heads**

5) FRPP/SVO 4.6 2-valve** "

Woohoo. Shawn you can port your heads.:p They don't even have 4V heads listed.

Sorry to see you go Ryan. There will likely be a line of F/S competitors following you.

[Jonathan Paulk]

1.17d) HEADS, PORTING: Prohibited. (*Porting only permitted on 4.6L Ford OEM 2-Valve '96-'04 Cylinder Heads with 100 pound weight adder.) Runners and combustion chambers must retain OEM appearance. Final acceptance at the discretion of NMRA Technical Department.

1.17k) VALVE JOB: Any valve job permitted.
Permitted Cylinder Head List, Parts Number: These are the only permitted cylinder heads and part numbers for competition in this category. If your cylinder head is not on this list, it is prohibited.
1) Stock Ford OEM 5.0 HO Cast Iron Cylinder Heads. (*Deduct 250#)
2) FRPP/SVO GT-40 Cast Iron Cylinder Heads
3) FRPP/SVO GT-40P Cast Iron Cylinder Heads
4) Stock Ford OEM 4.6 Cylinder Heads**
5) FRPP/SVO 4.6 2-valve**
Note: Stock factory OEM heads are those cylinder heads that are factory production line installed on production vehicles as recognized by NHRA.
**Porting permitted,

According to the rules, Porting only permitted on 2V heads w/ 100lbs added. Yes, the 4V heads are listed: Stock Ford OEM 4.6 Cylinder Heads.....


In the new 5.0 mag somebody has a new TB for the 3V, but it's still a twin bore....

[FS MACH1]

so as i have read NOT one current racer plans to come back ,

but a few previous and new ones are ( like 3 !)

great job NMRA !!!!!


obsolete NMRA Factory Stock 2003 Mach 1 FOR SALE make offer !

[KenCook]

No definite plans for us just yet
Have to do a break down.

New F/S rules will cost an unknown amount money
P/S will cost an unknown amount of money.

[Ian Mullane]

According to the rules, Porting only permitted on 2V heads w/ 100lbs added. Yes, the 4V heads are listed: Stock Ford OEM 4.6 Cylinder Heads.....


In the new 5.0 mag somebody has a new TB for the 3V, but it's still a twin bore....


I know Jonathan, I was just kidding.

[MP John]

Don't give up.
As much as NMRA wants 4v's out of Factory Stock entirely and wants to slowdown the pushrod guys maybe there is still hope. Let's not sell the cars yet. I'm hoping that the NMRA just wants to see the reaction of the racers on the preliminary rules, then will adjust them accordingly. When the rules become finalized you will understand how much the NMRA values your input and support of their organization.

Happy Thanksgiving all.

See eveybody at PRI.

[J.Pulaski]

I will not be following the tour, but will make MG and Atco. Hope to see some of you there.

[TMC]

Don't give up.
As much as NMRA wants 4v's out of Factory Stock entirely and wants to slowdown the pushrod guys maybe there is still hope. Let's not sell the cars yet. I'm hoping that the NMRA just wants to see the reaction of the racers on the preliminary rules, then will adjust them accordingly. When the rules become finalized you will understand how much the NMRA values your input and support of their organization.

Happy Thanksgiving all.

See eveybody at PRI.

It's odd how you assume that because of new rules that the NMRA wants 4V's out of the class. This past spring you could have easily said that the NMRA wanted only 4V's in the class based on the rules at that time which didn't leave much hope for the 5.0's or 2V's. I don't believe that either is the case and what they really want is fair competition for all cars and a certain appearance to the class. I agree with that but do also hate to see anyone have to spend more money on a car to be legal in a class that they have been legal in for the past several years.

The rear end rules seem to go a little overboard but they certainly do away with some of the more expensive stuff. We'll see how much of these stick through to the final rules, as you said.

Happy turkey day!

[KenB]

It's odd how you assume that because of new rules that the NMRA wants 4V's out of the class. This past spring you could have easily said that the NMRA wanted only 4V's in the class based on the rules at that time which didn't leave much hope for the 5.0's or 2V's.
Happy turkey day!


I completely disagree. The NMRA does want the 4V out and the rules prove it. Not only did they show that with the 2006 rules affecting current 4V's but they also ensured no new 4V with the 2007 cc rule. Who would build a new 4Vcar for the 2006 season now? To be competitive under the current weight, you would need to take advantage of the current cc rule. BUT, those heads would only be good for one year. So not only does this rule change chase away all current 4V participants, it also chases away any new 4v's for 2006. They seemed to achieve their goal. Get the 4V out without actually banning it. We are/were helping a customer put together a 4V car (that was already in progress) for 2006. Those plans are obviously in danger now. He has decided to wait until the rules are finalized to make a final decision of course.


Add to that the all the faster 5.0 guys have said they are leaving, and I see this as a huge mistake by the NMRA. In case anyone has missed it, we try and bring fans in to watch us race. Instead of leveling the playing field just a bit and get the fans excited to see Shawn Johnson and Jonathon Paulk line up again, or maybe Jeff Schmell and Denny Merrow or any of the other top guys, the fans won't recognize 1 name in the F/S class for 2006. I'm all about trying to bring new guys in, but when it's ONLY new guys, the fan base for that class will be ZERO.

That's a sad sight in my opinion.


Ken

[Redsnk95]

Time to sell the bracket car and go buy a bone stock foxbody car, spend some money and maybe do some traveling.

Troy

[Jamie R.]

With redsnk that seems it 5 makes for next year. To me this is where the class was in 2001 when we started in F/S, but everybody kept pushing the envelope and then parts were said to be ok and bam look at what it became. Stock parts don't cost that much to put back on these cars. I have to change some stuff, but I LOVE THE NEW RULES!!!! I imagine you will see quite a good car count now because anybody can compete. With just the amount of 4 valves that were being built you can very well argue that this class was becoming a 4 valve class and that would have been it. The stock parts for 5 liters are cheap how could a 5 liter guy not like the rules. I run my '01 4 valve with stock clutch and stock 3.27's with street tires it ain't slow so the 4 valves will be alright. The new rules give people a chance to compete I'm not sure that was the case before unless you had a boat load of money in the car.

Jamie R
F/S 6500

[Dennis Merrow]

based on the new rules I have about $6000 in parts I can't use. Every new rule effected my car !
thanks NMRA

[Jonathan Paulk]

I like the new rules, too. From a person having a mostly stock car point. Actually, LOL LOL....the way my black coupe was setup in 04 would fit great in the rules. Until the last two races it had stock brakes, stock rearend, factory tailpipes, and etc. Like everybody else has said, these are just Prelimary Rules, I have already gave them my opinions. I do not like the battery rule and the rearend rule. After going through the rules for the third time, I might be back next season.

[Jonathan Paulk]

Add to that the all the faster 5.0 guys have said they are leaving, and I see this as a huge mistake by the NMRA. In case anyone has missed it, we try and bring fans in to watch us race. Instead of leveling the playing field just a bit and get the fans excited to see Shawn Johnson and Jonathon Paulk line up again, or maybe Jeff Schmell and Denny Merrow or any of the other top guys, the fans won't recognize 1 name in the F/S class for 2006. I'm all about trying to bring new guys in, but when it's ONLY new guys, the fan base for that class will be ZERO.

That's a sad sight in my opinion.


Ken

People like watching us race????:o

BTW...I think we will run .60 or .70s.....

[Ian Mullane]

Denny, Shawn is right there with you on cost. I have the most trouble with the rearend rule. He would not only have to build a completely new 99+ rearend but he would also have to get new rims due to offset. Hardly fair that a 99+ car has to run a wider rearend. The only carrier that will survive is about $500 bucks vs a $150 spool (WTH??). Can't run a spool but proshifted, face-tooth engagement tranny's are alowed??? I don't get it.

Again, I don't really have a problem with the rules, I just have a problem with how much advance notice the racers and potential racers were given. It will be more apealing to the entry level racer.

[D.Stankos]

I like the new rules, too. From a person having a mostly stock car point. Actually, LOL LOL....the way my black coupe was setup in 04 would fit great in the rules. Until the last two races it had stock brakes, stock rearend, factory tailpipes, and etc. Like everybody else has said, these are just Prelimary Rules, I have already gave them my opinions. I do not like the battery rule and the rearend rule. After going through the rules for the third time, I might be back next season.

Jon - I agree - I really dont like the Battery and Rear rule either. I feel moving the battery to the back makes the cars look much better by cleaning up the engine compartment - also as for the no spool rule...It doesnt make much sense if you are alowing pro-shifted trannies ???

I think the rules work out ok for the guys who werent running the full curcuit. - It looks like the NMRA is targeting this class to be a "lets pull as many cars from the area we are racing at this weekend Class" -by making this a more entry level class.

I dont see many of the CURRENT top guys traveling to all the races anymore by making their cars slower. If I remember correctly - one of the mags did a popularity survey and the FS class was second only to Outlaw - not sure it will be that popular going forward.

As for me - I think my car can be converted pretty easy to be very competitive in this class - jsut might make PA and NJ this year.

We shall see.

[vrtical]

Get rid of the proshifted trans and use 2005 rear/gear rules. A proshifted trans is worth some ET. Its a $600 difference, but nobody in FS really needs a proshifted trans. I think this is less drastic than the proposed rear/gear limitation rules. It also affects less racers. JMO

[ponie1992]

my car fits pretty damn good in this class now considering i never moved the battery, use one air bag in the pass. spring, have a trac-loc unit, etc. the rules pretty much described my car.:) i sure am gonna do my best to make a race or two. don't know if that will happen with a new baby coming in a month. anyone want to rent a LEGAL FS car?...

[TMC]

I completely disagree. The NMRA does want the 4V out and the rules prove it. Not only did they show that with the 2006 rules affecting current 4V's but they also ensured no new 4V with the 2007 cc rule. Who would build a new 4Vcar for the 2006 season now? To be competitive under the current weight, you would need to take advantage of the current cc rule. BUT, those heads would only be good for one year. So not only does this rule change chase away all current 4V participants, it also chases away any new 4v's for 2006. They seemed to achieve their goal. Get the 4V out without actually banning it. We are/were helping a customer put together a 4V car (that was already in progress) for 2006. Those plans are obviously in danger now. He has decided to wait until the rules are finalized to make a final decision of course.


Add to that the all the faster 5.0 guys have said they are leaving, and I see this as a huge mistake by the NMRA. In case anyone has missed it, we try and bring fans in to watch us race. Instead of leveling the playing field just a bit and get the fans excited to see Shawn Johnson and Jonathon Paulk line up again, or maybe Jeff Schmell and Denny Merrow or any of the other top guys, the fans won't recognize 1 name in the F/S class for 2006. I'm all about trying to bring new guys in, but when it's ONLY new guys, the fan base for that class will be ZERO.

That's a sad sight in my opinion.


Ken

Again, last spring you could have said that the NMRA wanted the 5.0's out of the class because the rules favored the 4V's. So, to now suggest that they want the 4V's out is a poor argument IMO. Nobody was claiming that they wanted the 5.0's out last year and it should not be a claim this year.

New racers come and go in all classes. Remember back in the first couple years of FS and it lead into the chase to be in the 11's? Are any of those guys running the class now? Nope. So I'm sure that the names you listed are not the only reason that there is a fan base for FS and that there will be more and other people to follow in the future.

[Steve Moberley]

LOL! It's funny. You're in almost exactly the same situation I am, right down to the baby coming in (less than a month).

I'm not renting my car out though.... ;)

Speaking of spending money to go slower. I'll have to pull the S-trim off of my car and come up with some GT-40 heads. If these rules become final, I'm doing it.

Steve




my car fits pretty damn good in this class now considering i never moved the battery, use one air bag in the pass. spring, have a trac-loc unit, etc. the rules pretty much described my car.:) i sure am gonna do my best to make a race or two. don't know if that will happen with a new baby coming in a month. anyone want to rent a LEGAL FS car?...

[Steve Moberley]

Additionally, for you 5.0 guys that arent happy.

You were probably going to have to spend money anyways, right? I mean if they were going to add some parts to the 5.0s to make them capable of running with the 4Vs, you would have had to spend money on those parts, correct?

Unless you thought they were going to put another 300 pounds on the 4V cars...

And I really don't see what the problem is with the fast 4V cars moving up to Pure Street. The cars are making "in the hunt" horsepower right now. Pull a couple hundred pounds of ballast, throw on some slicks, a tube K-member, longtube headers, and electric water pump. You'll be within striking distance before you even get the cams, port the heads, or any of the other good stuff.

Steve

[TMC]

Hey Steve...I may be able to produce an untouched set of GT-40's if you need some...

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

Additionally, for you 5.0 guys that arent happy.

You were probably going to have to spend money anyways, right? I mean if they were going to add some parts to the 5.0s to make them capable of running with the 4Vs, you would have had to spend money on those parts, correct?


Steve

I can not speak for the 5.0 guys, but I was happy with the 05 rules. I thought that they would slow the mod cars down, leave us alone and not have to spend extra money. The extra money not spent would go to racing a full schedule

[KenB]

Again, last spring you could have said that the NMRA wanted the 5.0's out of the class because the rules favored the 4V's. So, to now suggest that they want the 4V's out is a poor argument IMO. Nobody was claiming that they wanted the 5.0's out last year and it should not be a claim this year.

Huh? Are we reading the same thread? We're not even discussing the fairness of the rules. We're talking about totally rebuilding cars to make the LEGAL.


New racers come and go in all classes. Remember back in the first couple years of FS and it lead into the chase to be in the 11's? Are any of those guys running the class now? Nope. So I'm sure that the names you listed are not the only reason that there is a fan base for FS and that there will be more and other people to follow in the future.

Agreed, racers do come and go. This time, the entire top half of the field will be gone. That's a little different than 'racers come and go'.

[KenB]

I think the rules work out ok for the guys who werent running the full curcuit. - It looks like the NMRA is targeting this class to be a "lets pull as many cars from the area we are racing at this weekend Class" -by making this a more entry level class.

That's what brackets are for. Heads up classes should be tailored to the guy who would like to run most or all of the races. Otherwise, why keep track of points?

[KenB]

Additionally, for you 5.0 guys that arent happy.

You were probably going to have to spend money anyways, right? I mean if they were going to add some parts to the 5.0s to make them capable of running with the 4Vs, you would have had to spend money on those parts, correct?

Yes. It's alot easier to justify spending money when it's on BETTER parts to go FASTER. Denny and Shawn would have to replace tons of very nice parts to go SLOWER.



And I really don't see what the problem is with the fast 4V cars moving up to Pure Street. The cars are making "in the hunt" horsepower right now. Pull a couple hundred pounds of ballast, throw on some slicks, a tube K-member, longtube headers, and electric water pump. You'll be within striking distance before you even get the cams, port the heads, or any of the other good stuff.

Steve

Come on Steve, you can't be serious. No one in their right mind would go racing to 'be in the hunt'. Build to win or don't do it. At least that's my philosophy. Being the tuner of Shawn's car and my own car that ran P/S this year, the cost involved to move a 4V to P/S would be enormous. Do you know that the only 4V intake that is worth a crap in P/S cost over $3,000? Do you know what a set of 4V cams and springs run? How about $1500-$2000. That's one set. As you know from what the 5.0 guys say, you have to try many things to get it right. So just for an intake and some cams, plus the valvetrain stuff to move up to PS you looking at $5,000. Then add in everything else, like head porting, k member, headers, etc and it certainly does become a 'big deal'. For the championship 4V from F/S this year I would estimate anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000+ to step up to P/S.


Ken

[Shawn Johnson]

Ken is right....

It will cost me $5000 to stay in FS and break a lot of parts running a 390 gear and a steel flywheel.... 4valves need high RPM to move off the line..or spend $10000 to $15000 to move to PS......

[Jonathan Paulk]

Well....which one is the lesser of two evils?

[FS MACH1]

Well....which one is the lesser of two evils?


finding a NEW PLAYGROUND where NMRA does NOT set the rules !!!

to be honest i could live with all the rules but the 3.90 gear limitation and
the battery rule ..................... possibly maybe .....

[Shawn Johnson]

Well....which one is the lesser of two evils?

That is a good question.....

How much additonal cost will I pay fixing all the parts I break...... I can only run my heads for one more year so I would be spending all that money just to run one more season before spending the $10000 to $15000 to move..... I would have to rebuild the front suspension and spend a lot of track time and money getting the chassis back to working just for one more year..... I would need to build a new rear end that I can only use for one season...... my sponsor already sent me my flywheel/clutch combinations for next year which are not legal now.....I spent over $40000 on a car to be a top contender and now when I think I'm set or a while the NMRA changes everything.....

I can see where they want to send the class to but if your going to completly change the class why not give us more time...I thought it was always a year notice for major changes...I know its not writen down but that would have been nice.....

[KenCook]

Thats what I'm thinking.

The only thing safe on the trooper is the sway bar.
The rest has to be changed to fall within the new rules

Not to mention that baby formula & pampers is killing me. hehe

I told Carlos to spend what ever HE wants to, to get the 2 cars ready :D


Well....which one is the lesser of two evils?

[stangfireman]

Speaking of spending money to go slower. I'll have to pull the S-trim off of my car and come up with some GT-40 heads. If these rules become final, I'm doing it.

Steve

Hey Steve, I have a set of GT40's that I bought from Jeff Swanson's NHRA Stock eliminator car. I had a fresh valve job done last year before BG and ran them roughly 50 passes, if that, 58cc chambers and I'll include a new set of springs.
Shoot me an email if you're interested.
Todd
stangfireman@hotmail

[Jonathan Paulk]

The rearend rule kills me....JPC has the supsension stuff just laying around off other cars. Just take the turnbuckles off the anti-sway bar, tie the bar to the frame somehow. The front suspension on my car is fine. Rich Groh has my whole motor, and I relayed to him to do not touch it for now. We will have no time to test the suspension due to all the tracks are now closed and do not reopen untill March, I believe after Bradenton. I just don't know yet.....

[Bob Cosby]

Carlos could likely race the 99 in 2006 AND 2007 with only minor changes - I bet the current heads on the car could meet the 50cc rule with only a minor tweak or two (they were very close already - and the car ran pretty damn good with em).

The 3.90 rule sucks, but I think the steel flywheel/pressure plate would be necessary to get the thing moving with authority anyway.

Also...remember how many of us (myself included) always said how heads-up racing isn't cheap? If you want to race - race, either in this class, P/S, or whatever.

Bob

[Jonathan Paulk]

Carlos could likely race the 99 in 2006 AND 2007 with only minor changes - I bet the current heads on the car could meet the 50cc rule with only a minor tweak or two (they were very close already - and the car ran pretty damn good with em).

The 3.90 rule sucks, but I think the steel flywheel/pressure plate would be necessary to get the thing moving with authority anyway.

Also...remember how many of us (myself included) always said how heads-up racing isn't cheap? If you want to race - race, either in this class, P/S, or whatever.

Bob

You right Bob, if you really want to race, you will find a way to race.....

I can't imagine how fast the Black Cobra would be if it maxed out the rules!!!!:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek:

[Ian Mullane]

Additionally, for you 5.0 guys that arent happy.

You were probably going to have to spend money anyways, right? I mean if they were going to add some parts to the 5.0s to make them capable of running with the 4Vs, you would have had to spend money on those parts, correct?
At least they would have been spending money to go faster or on better parts that could be used if they decided to step up a class in the future.

And I really don't see what the problem is with the fast 4V cars moving up to Pure Street. The cars are making "in the hunt" horsepower right now. Pull a couple hundred pounds of ballast, throw on some slicks, a tube K-member, longtube headers, and electric water pump. You'll be within striking distance before you even get the cams, port the heads, or any of the other good stuff.

Steve

Sure they could step up but even with what you listed, which adds up to over $2500, they would only be running 10.80's at best. Probably wouldn't make top half in 06. Yeah they would be in the hunt......as the prey.:)

This stuff is all a calculated risk. Some racers would be happy with being in the show and hanging out with the other racers. Nothing wrong with that. It's a good oportunity to learn some things. Eventually they will grow tired of this and either get out or step up the program. This involes investing a significant amount of money as well as a significant amount of time in trying to obtain sponsors. The racers that go to this extreme are taking the chance that they will see some return on the dollar spent in the way of recognition or cash money. The same guys that are at this point in F/S are the ones that will feel the biggest impact from these proposed rules. It's like a stock trade gone bad. It's obvious, now, that the NMRA wants to take this class in a different direction than it has been going over the last few seasons. The racers that stepped up and kept the class exciting for the last few seasons are now feeling a bit betrayed. No way around that.

[Jonathan Paulk]

Everybody here has great points. All this should be put into an email and sent to the Rules Dept by each and everyone of us!!!!

You know what.....we are actually having a civilized conversation.......

[John Leslie Jr.]

Well with the exception of the oil pan, sway bar, battery, and tailpipe rule changes, i say leave the prelim. rules the way they are. It brings in more new people, and helps the smaller guys out. I don't have the money and backing to have exotic parts, or the kickbutt setup so these rules help us out. Makes it a more level playing ground. Then most races will be close between competitors. It won't be mods kicking our butts all over the place.(Though u guys did excellent with your programs and deserve ur credit). Anyways just my thoughts on it.

[Shawn Johnson]

Carlos could likely race the 99 in 2006 AND 2007 with only minor changes - I bet the current heads on the car could meet the 50cc rule with only a minor tweak or two (they were very close already - and the car ran pretty damn good with em).

The 3.90 rule sucks, but I think the steel flywheel/pressure plate would be necessary to get the thing moving with authority anyway.

Also...remember how many of us (myself included) always said how heads-up racing isn't cheap? If you want to race - race, either in this class, P/S, or whatever.

Bob


Bob Im behind you 100% on this... I'm glad you are deffending the possition that the rules should stay the same and if these other teams want to race then they need to spend the money like the top teams right now already have... "racing isn't cheap? If you want to race - race, either in this class, P/S, or whatever."

[5.0pilot]

I know this is a little off topic but when can we expect the final rules to be posted. Al.

[fiveoh]

Well with the exception of the oil pan, sway bar, battery, and tailpipe rule changes, i say leave the prelim. rules the way they are. It brings in more new people, and helps the smaller guys out. I don't have the money and backing to have exotic parts, or the kickbutt setup so these rules help us out. Makes it a more level playing ground. Then most races will be close between competitors. It won't be mods kicking our butts all over the place.(Though u guys did excellent with your programs and deserve ur credit). Anyways just my thoughts on it.


I like john's input. I totally agree with all the rule changes except the ones john mentioned, and maybe the steel flywheel rule and the rear rule. I mean spools are just so much cheaper than a good differential.

[jackchan]

i know this is probably in vain....but Maybe they should add a class......make all the rules stay with Factory Stock name that they are imposing for '06, limit gear on all cars maybe 4:10's on 5.0's and 3:73's on 4.6's.Your average guy off the street does not run any more gear than a 4:10 anyway!.... Give a weight break for Stock HO intakes, and only allow Cobra, GT-40, explorer/mountianeer intakes...and 65mm TB's!....And create another in-between class between PS and FS...... The origional intent of the class is far from where it started....no doubt about it! Entry level people off the street who don't have an extra $6000 laying around or more and still want to be part of the action.....ya know?....If people have spent this much more money and now the class rules are going backwards........then add a class. Keep the 06 rules for FS and add something else like Factory race! And allow all the things that were allowed in 05. But drop the tail pipes, allow bigger headers, tb and a few other items....maybe slicks...but still "no porting"..to the mix and see what becomes of it.
just my .02 cents
Jack

[Jeff Cardwell]

How about like jackchan said, start a new class called factory race or super stock using the 05 Factory Stock Rules. Might as well allow the M/T Drag Radial play in this class. The rules for 06 fit my car along with my limited budget better, more like they did when I first went to BG in 01 and everyone was running in the mid-high 12's. Too bad that they can not get away from the spec-fuel and be able to run pump gas with no higher octane than 93.

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

How about like jackchan said, start a new class called factory race or super stock using the 05 Factory Stock Rules. The rules for 06 fit my car along with my limited budget better, more like they did when I first went to BG in 01 and everyone was running in the mid-high 12's.

I like that idea too. This would let the local guys and the few who are only going to one or two events the chance to race within their budgets.

[Bob Cosby]

Gentlemen....neat idea, but not going to happen.

[Adam Smith]

Rules are always going to change and yes spending money to go slower sucks. It appears that maybe the NMRA is trying to tell the top half of the FS class to either slow down or step up (to the next class). Its a double edge sword to me. The top FS guys are going to have to spend say $5000 to slow down and stay in this class if these rules stay. On the other hand if the rules hadn't got changed, the middle/bottom of the FS class would have to spend $5000(or more) to be competitive. I will agree though, that at least all the FS cars would still be legal. I would say where you are in the class depends a lot on your opinion of the new rules.
And as much as Ken and I agree to disagree, he is right, campaigning a 4V PS car is a very expensive venture. Let me rephrase that....a competitive 4V PS car. Good luck to all you guys and I hope everyone still finds somewhere to race in 06.

Adam

[KenCook]

NMRA will not add a new N/A class thats slower then F/S or in between F/S and P/S
It's not going to happen.

[jackchan]

maybe they should seriously consider adding a class. It would definetly help a regular guy off the street have a place to race.....How big would a "REAL" entry level class at events.....? ask yourself......IMHO it would be huge! FFW has a class like that already. And to me it would be better if the entry level class were basically the same rules across the board from FFW to NMRA.......may not ever happen, but it definetly would appeal to a broader bunch of potential racers!
Jack

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

the middle/bottom of the FS class would have to spend $5000(or more) to be competitive. I will agree though, that at least all the FS cars would still be legal.

Adam

I am one of the bottom in FS and I do not mind spending $5,000 or $10,000 to get to the top. That means going faster!! Not spending money to change parts that already are on my car because others do not want or can not afford the parts to make them one of the top guys.

[Redsnk95]

Referring to FFW's Street Stang class when it was first started (before they turned it into a stupid index class)? That class was very cool, radial tires, no front runners, minimal mods. High 12s @ 108ish was top qualifier.

Troy

[MP John]

To have a class you need rules.

FFW street stang offers "local" racers the opportunity to try a heads up class without any rules. Other than the 12.50 index. My little modular GT runs right there and would be a fit. Drive it to the track, race and then drive it home. I don't even need to change tires.

Now to take this same GT and make it fit FS, I would need to change intake, cams and my long tubes headers. Probably change my rear gear to a 3.90 (3.73 currenty). AND take about 400# out of my car. I consider my GT fairly representative of hopped up NA 2V modulars. I wouldn't change anything to fit this class JUST to race when NMRA comes close (2 or 3 events). $$$$

The SS class draws more cars than FFW other heads up class. IF NMRA wants to look at getting more "locals" to participate or try heads up racing with "what they got", then SS maybe the secret.

Doesn't solve the FS rules issues, but does answer the lets get more new racers involved.

[90GT398]

Man I hate to say this, but maybe it is time to put the 11.49 rule in effect, but at the same time, I want to know how fast a 4V engine can run without a restrictor placed on it.

[KenCook]

There wont be a .49 with the new rules.

Man I hate to say this, but maybe it is time to put the 11.49 rule in effect, but at the same time, I want to know how fast a 4V engine can run without a restrictor placed on it.

[90GT398]

Very True, I hope you guy's can get this worked out I was always impressed with what the cars were running being cammers or pushrods, e.t that is.

[Dennis Merrow]

anyone who thinks the top guys should move up, give me the $12,000 to do it and i'll be there.
I'll even put your name on the car as a sponsor.

are all the people that like these new rules going to spend the $10,000 to travel to these races.
My traveling cost me over $15,000 + last year.

[vossperformance]

AS FAR AS ADDING A NEW CLASS. I dont think it could happen because of time issues. They dont have the time to run a complete new ladder.

[John Leslie Jr.]

anyone who thinks the top guys should move up, give me the $12,000 to do it and i'll be there.
I'll even put your name on the car as a sponsor.

are all the people that like these new rules going to spend the $10,000 to travel to these races.
My traveling cost me over $15,000 + last year.

I will, for the love of racing, and the fact that now i have a chance to win. Either way with or without the new rules, we still have to spend that much to travel. Also either i spend $8000-$10000 to compete with old rules, or with new rules i can compete only spending $2000...hmmmm, whats the better choice?...I think we all know.

[KenB]

I will, for the love of racing, and the fact that now i have a chance to win. Either way with or without the new rules, we still have to spend that much to travel. Also either i spend $8000-$10000 to compete with old rules, or with new rules i can compete only spending $2000...hmmmm, whats the better choice?...I think we all know.

Yeah, and I could enter the next special olympics track event and do pretty well, but...


The question is, do you want to compete with the best out there or against the guy who says, 'uh, my car fits that class, I'll give it a shot'. I vote for choice number 1.

[Adam Smith]

I will, for the love of racing, and the fact that now i have a chance to win. Either way with or without the new rules, we still have to spend that much to travel. Also either i spend $8000-$10000 to compete with old rules, or with new rules i can compete only spending $2000...hmmmm, whats the better choice?...I think we all know.

Exactly my point John, its much better for you with the new rules, and for somebody like Shawn or Jeff Schmell the old rules look a lot better. Thats why I am a lowly Mod Muscle racer with a car that I can(and have) gotten groceries in during last season.:D In the end the guys willing to put up the money and time to be the best, will be the best, no matter what the rules.

Adam

[KenB]

In the end the guys willing to put up the money and time to be the best, will be the best, no matter what the rules.

Adam


EXACTLY
-------------

[John Leslie Jr.]

Compete against the best?...don't you you mean get slaughtered, go home 16 hours away after first round, not my idea of fun. The new rules hurt how many exactly, top 4 or 5 guys. I want to run against the best, and i wanna be one of the best, as well as many others, who now have that chance, but how can you when the playing field is so lop-sided? But either way rule changes or not i'll stil be racing. THEY make the final decision, so when they come out, either you're in or you're out.

[KenB]

Compete against the best?...don't you you mean get slaughtered, go home 16 hours away after first round, not my idea of fun. The new rules hurt how many exactly, top 4 or 5 guys. I want to run against the best, and i wanna be one of the best, as well as many others, who now have that chance, but how can you when the playing field is so lop-sided?

John,

I never said that I didn't support rules to make the combos closer. I'd rather see them give you guys something to go faster rather than making they guys who have already spent the money spend even more to go slower.

Ken

[John Leslie Jr.]

John,

I never said that I didn't support rules to make the combos closer. I'd rather see them give you guys something to go faster rather than making they guys who have already spent the money spend even more to go slower.

Ken

I would like to see that too, but thats not what they offered us, you know?..so we have to deal with whats in front of us, and if these are the only changes they offer and will make me more competitive, well i'm all for it.

[FS MACH1]

In the end the guys willing to put up the money and time to be the best, will be the best, no matter what the rules.

Adam

and MOST will find themselves in the same spot they are NOW

until they are willing to build to the CURRENT rules and test within the

CURRENT rules ....... why because there will always be those that will

SPEND the MONEY goes back to the formula

HEADSUP RACING = MONEY X ALOT

[Adam Smith]

and MOST will find themselves in the same spot they are NOW

until they are willing to build to the CURRENT rules and test within the

CURRENT rules ....... why because there will always be those that will

SPEND the MONEY goes back to the formula

HEADSUP RACING = MONEY X ALOT

Exactly Jeff. I enjoy the hell out of watching the class but I think you guys are all nuts for the money invested.:) I will be the 1st to admit that I just don't have the money to heads up race. And for those who barely do, some of these rules could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Adam

[John Leslie Jr.]

and MOST will find themselves in the same spot they are NOW

until they are willing to build to the CURRENT rules and test within the

CURRENT rules ....... why because there will always be those that will

SPEND the MONEY goes back to the formula

HEADSUP RACING = MONEY X ALOT

Ok, listen up guys, ITS NOT ABOUT WHOS WILLING, BUT ABOUT WHO ....CAN....spend the money. The NMRA is looking at us as a business, we have low car counts...no money made. So you guys can drop this whole thing of us other guys that "Don't test enough, or run our program to the fullest." Level the field of play even if it means slowing us down, you'll get more people in. We all started that way. More people, more money made. And also, i'm tired of it as well as others probably to see the same people in the finals. So what was said earlier about fans come to see some of the top racers, well not time and time again. IT GETS BORING. Lets say we leave the rules, ok, we have what then 5 or 6 cars running awsome numbers while everyone else gets smoked. BORING. And so you guys are saying everyone that doesn't spend as much as the top guys don't need to be racing, or of us whom find that it sucks to lose first round all the time, every race, while the same guys go on, so we shouldn't race then. BORING, that said, for those of us that don't like traveling all over and losing or have the money to spend as the top guys, it becomes no more fun, so we should not race now?...thats what ur saying. So if u take us guys out of racing, u have how many guys left in the FS class, 5 or 6 then, NO MONEY MADE. Now with these rules, field is level, more people come out, travel to the races, because they all know now, that anyone has a chance to win.

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

The NMRA is looking at us as a business, we have low car counts...no money made.

You mean the NMRA is not a non profit organization.

[Mike Washington]

Now Jeff and myself rarely agree on anything anymore :).....

But what he is saying is so the truth......


Make the rules whatever....Race with square wheels. The guys that run upfront WILL ALWAYS run up front.

Just because they are adding additional rules to "so call" bridge the gap between the faster cars and the slower cars(between the 5.0's and other 5.0's not Mod vs 5.0), this is just blowing smoke up some peoples butts.....

Plain and simple the rules that NMRA proposed just cost the current racers more dough....

When these overwhelming crowds of new racers come in and get there ass kicked is it any better than before...

Now the 5.0 vs 4V debate.......
I think they might have gone a little far against thems, Did I just say that :).
There were plenty of fine suggestions made to level the gap between them and I think NMRA should have gone in that direction.


Laters

Mike Washington

[J.Pulaski]

I'd like to commend everyone here for an intelligent and civil discussion. Proves that everyone is also considering the future of the class not just themselves.

From my perspective I think the NMRA felt that the pushrod 5.0 was maxed and would not be capable of running the number that the 4vs were. Unless they allowed modifications that went beyond the scope of what they felt was F/S.
Granted the NMRA could have made minor changes and then gave everyone notice that 2007 would see "sweeping changes", but that would have lead to the same arguements. ( why spend money to go slower and why build for 1 season)

From what I could see the class was fast becoming 4v only. Say what you will, but that is not in the best interest of F/S. From what I have read a 2v will now be a viable alternative. That is in the best interest of F/S.

Any rule changes will hurt some and help others. In this case they hurt the top 5 and gave hope to the rest of the field. Lets see what the final rules are and then make your decisions based on that.

[Steve Moberley]

Thanks for the offers on the heads guys. If these rules stick, I am sure you will be hearing from me.

I'll stand by what I have said that I really think the current changes are the best thing for the class, and the NMRA in general. I think Factory Stock could be what it's supposed to be, which is an entry-level heads-up class.

Just because I don't agree with some of the guys who find themselves being ganked by the rules changes, doesn't mean I can't sympathize. It sucks to spend money to redo stuff, slower or faster.

That said: I do find it unusual that they complain about spending money to go slower, when they have spent so much already to run in the slowest class in the NMRA.

Steve

[Bob Cosby]

LOL @ Steve. :)

[FS MACH1]

Ok, listen up guys, ITS NOT ABOUT WHOS WILLING, BUT ABOUT WHO ....CAN....spend the money. The NMRA is looking at us as a business, we have low car counts...no money made. So you guys can drop this whole thing of us other guys that "Don't test enough, or run our program to the fullest." Level the field of play even if it means slowing us down, you'll get more people in. We all started that way. More people, more money made. And also, i'm tired of it as well as others probably to see the same people in the finals. So what was said earlier about fans come to see some of the top racers, well not time and time again. IT GETS BORING. Lets say we leave the rules, ok, we have what then 5 or 6 cars running awsome numbers while everyone else gets smoked. BORING. And so you guys are saying everyone that doesn't spend as much as the top guys don't need to be racing, or of us whom find that it sucks to lose first round all the time, every race, while the same guys go on, so we shouldn't race then. BORING, that said, for those of us that don't like traveling all over and losing or have the money to spend as the top guys, it becomes no more fun, so we should not race now?...thats what ur saying. So if u take us guys out of racing, u have how many guys left in the FS class, 5 or 6 then, NO MONEY MADE. Now with these rules, field is level, more people come out, travel to the races, because they all know now, that anyone has a chance to win.

WHOA .... thats not what i said at all
more like with ANY given set of rules there are but 4-5 contenders
any given year in the heads up class look at the points standings
in other classes they arent changing the rules in JOHN

the outcome is the same , there is 4-5 cars/drivers that shine above the rest !

it is FACT !!!

so JOHN if you COULD have spent the money WOULD you ?
i am sure there are 100s that would too !!!! the same will happen with
these rules too ...

dont take me wrong John all i was saying there , not everyone was taking
advantage of all the rules (FACT)
..... Mike seems to understand what i am saying !

and with these rules i dont believe everyone will either ...... but let it be
said MOST TOP RACERS will be at the top with any given rules


this rule change does help anyone that isnt ready to spend money to get
there and do the testing along with it

do you guys really believe these simple rules bring everything in check????
not the gap between mods and pushrods but the fight for the TOP !

with these rules NOONE is any closer to being CHAMP in 2006 than
they were in 2005 !

even with these rules there will be such a thing as a purpose built

factory stock car and it will KICK ***

I doubt there will be NO tighter race for the top 5 than there was this year.

#1 in a HEADS UP class will be there for the taking , for everyone determined
enough. we watch it at every race !

[MP John]

Well stated by all. Now get to sending the mail to NMRA tech.

I have mine almost ready.
My points are:
4.10 gear ALL racers (most common used street gear)
rear end - 1 year moratorium.
Steel flywheel - ALL racers
Aluminum pressure plate - option
48 cc for 2007 - keeps most everybody from having to change heads.
I think that's it.

[Mike Washington]

originally posted by: MP John
"I have mine almost ready.
My points are:
4.10 gear ALL racers (most common used street gear)
rear end - 1 year moratorium.
Steel flywheel - ALL racers
Aluminum pressure plate - option
48 cc for 2007 - keeps most everybody from having to change heads.

Mine= Above plus:

4.10 for 4v ONLY (Ala 2004)
Long Tubes for 5.0
Interior oil pan mods legal
(Flat Hoods for all-Fiberglass Opt.)

Not that I rate anymore.
But...................

Laters
Mike Washington

[Ian Mullane]

I just cannot get over the spool rule. A spool is the cheapest way to build a rearend that will survive the tire shake these cars are going to dish out with steel flywheels. I can attest to that. I broke 2 carriers in 02, each having less than 15 passes on them. And why not just state that the rearend cannot be narrower than stock give or take a 1/2 inch. Who cares what year its out of. Shawns car has an unmodified rear out of a 88 GT because when I owned that car thats what was available and inexpensive (free) at the time. Also I'd rather see aluminum flywheels and steel pressure plates. Lots of guys are running aluminum flywheels these days. The aluminum pressure plates are very expensive in comparison.

[Bob Cosby]

Agree on the spools, Ian.

[CarlosSobrino]

Wow, I go giant tortoise hunting with Ted Nugent in the Galapagos Islands for several weeks and the free world goes wacko. For starters, Shawn is actually complaining about spending money, Ken Cook is buying a neck-collar cause drag radial has gotten cheaper than F/S, Kyle Voss actually has many folks agreeing with him, Ranger has quit F/S ...again. Cats and dogs are living together, and the ultimate kicker , MIKE AND JEFF AGREE ON SOMETHING.

Seriously, I dont like most of the rules, but I do understand the need for the change. Its not hard for me to say that though, both my cars are not far from being 06 legal and 07 in regards to the cobra. Still undecided if AAR will run F/S in 06, but I do see the pushrods running faster than the mods.

[Ed Curtis]

.... put the top down on the C5 ....

.... Load the CD player with some vintage Van Halen ....

.... Remember the good old days of Mustang heads-up racing ....

.... Cruise to New Hampshire and look at some orange leaves ....

:p :p :p :p

[Jonathan Paulk]

Hey Carlos....it might even be cheaper to go run Real Street?:confused: :eek:

[Jamie R.]

My Yankee Brotha, did you and Ted shoot any giant tortoise's?:D
Yeah Ranger quitting again.....I did'nt see that one coming:rolleyes: :D :D
Jeff and Mike agreeing on something is very shocking!!!!!!!!! Heck I was actually surprised to see that ole Mike is even still watching these boards. Heck I think I might can actually make some money back on my car with these rules because I have most all the stock stuff to go back on it and with selling the other stuff I might come out to the good!!

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[ponie1992]

hell jamie, you never even moved your battery to the hatch did ya?:D

[Rey]

A 2v can win this class




Hell Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here we go boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jonathan Paulk]

Finally!!! Were/how the heck have you been!!!!!

[DBlack1]

Lets not kid ourselves here, factory stock will never be a true entry level class. How many people do you know that will spend the kind of money that is spent by the top runners for a 11.xx shortblock. The amount of money to build a top running car, either pushrod or mod, is quite sickening.

I would like to see a stock shortblock with factory replacement pistons only rule. I would come and race if I didn't need to build a $4k+ shortblock to be competitive. I already have the heads that just need a change of retainers and to milled a couple of cc's.

[Rey]

Finally!!! Were/how the heck have you been!!!!!


Sorry John I have been working on a certain 2v.....And I was on vacation in Puerto Rico....As a civilian......LOL Full season for me next year:D

Rey

[Jonathan Paulk]

Cool......

[Fast Orange]

Lets not kid ourselves here, factory stock will never be a true entry level class. How many people do you know that will spend the kind of money that is spent by the top runners for a 11.xx shortblock. The amount of money to build a top running car, either pushrod or mod, is quite sickening.

I would like to see a stock shortblock with factory replacement pistons only rule. I would come and race if I didn't need to build a $4k+ shortblock to be competitive. I already have the heads that just need a change of retainers and to milled a couple of cc's.

I disagree, Factory Stock is an Entry Level Class...

Half of the class consists of Racers, and half of the class consist of street car guys that want to rub elbows with racers. :)

[frog]

Anyone for an Outlaw Factory Stock class

Same rules as 05, M/T Drag radials legal and 5.0's can port the heads.

[jackchan]

it would be better on the average street joe to have a stock bottem end rule. But....it's gonna be hard to turn back time....and do something like that.



maybe Outlaw Factory Stock class with '05 rules and M/T 26 x 8 slicks, ported heads....now that would be exciting! Don't get me wrong the BFG Drag Radials are one of the most awsome street tires around. But, it looks like to me its very hard on equipment and this "tire shake" (not ever sure what that is exactly...but plan to find out) i.e. flywheels, carriers, axles,transmissions!

[Ryan Hecox]

maybe Outlaw Factory Stock class with '05 rules and M/T 26 x 8 slicks, ported heads....now that would be exciting!


They call that class "Pure Street"

I know the NMRA changed the rules mostly based on my car. They do not want the 4v's in the class, that is painfully obvious. So, I simply changed classes to hopefully relieve some pf the pressure off the class. Good Luck to all in 06!

Ryan

[Jonathan Paulk]

Lol Lol Lol

[KenCook]

Well the show is over.
Where is the god damn final rules! :D

[Jonathan Paulk]

Wonder how long they will take to release them......also wonder how many rules revision change requests they received???!!!!

I just looked at last years rules....they released the final rules around this time last year....Would like to hope we see them next week.....

[Jason Reiss]

I'd think Monday. But I'm not positive...

[Jonathan Paulk]

Is that a hint??? Or just an idea????

[Jason Reiss]

Just an idea, man. I say what I mean, I don't beat around the bush. That's why I said I'm not positive....

[MP John]

Just an idea, man. I say what I mean, I don't beat around the bush. That's why I said I'm not positive....


Politically correct!

[Jason Reiss]

Come now, John. You should know ME better than that. :)

[PBMracing]

I'd think Monday. But I'm not positive...

Fester works for NMRA now. I see he is learning well since he did not include a date nor the year that the infamous "Monday" will be in.

Same bullsheeeet every year with the rules coming out......
Maybe someday they will learn....
Chris

[Jason Reiss]

I meant this coming Monday. If not Monday, I'd expect sometime that week.

You know what? I got the preliminary rules AT THE SAME TIME as they were posted on the NMRA site.

I'm thinking Monday, January 6, 2009.

Who's with me? :)

[Jonathan Paulk]

I hope they don't wait till Jan!!! That would be as ridiculous as the pre-lim rules!!...........Wait a minute....nothing can be that ridiculous....

[vrtical]

maybe they will be gift rapped :eek:

[ponie1992]

watch, the rules probably wont change or if they do, very little. so all this whining and crying would be for nothing.:D