question about these rules weights

[jclarkg]

If you guys are saying the gt 40 needs to weigh less then would'nt that put the gt40 cars weight right at the current e7 weight? The gt40 makes more power than the e7 ( I think Justin even said this before) so why would you want the weights so close together. I'm just asking this as someone that used to race and is just reading and watching. Take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

[jclarkg]

Anybody out there?

Jamie R.

[f/s 4valve]

If you guys are saying the gt 40 needs to weigh less then would'nt that put the gt40 cars weight right at the current e7 weight? The gt40 makes more power than the e7 ( I think Justin even said this before) so why would you want the weights so close together. I'm just asking this as someone that used to race and is just reading and watching. Take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

i have no clue jamie i didnt even know what e 7s were till bg.

[KenCook]

I think Robin would have data on the hp difference from GT40's to E7's
I'm pretty sure he did dyno pulls on both back in the day.

[Tommy@JPC]

I depends on what you have. I think 150lbs-200lbs off a GT40 not 250lbs.

[Brandon Alsept]

I am guessing that they make similar peak power probably within 5 or so of each other based on Tommy's MPH. Then I would say the GT40s should have a broader power band. So probably take 150 off and go from there just my .02$

[jclarkg]

This still just makes no sense to me because the gt40 always has made more power. This is like saying the gt40 and the e7 will make the same power because 50 pounds ain't nothin'. I've had both heads and I know the gt40's make more power, the e7's I have made some power but not like the gt40's. This is just confusing to understand the reasons.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

[Brandon Alsept]

Well it is not a exact science but I took Tommys 11.46 @ 116 figured it at 3210lbs, that comes up with about 346 rwhp, Then I took his 11.33 @ 119 and figured it at 2960lbs and that comes up to 343 rwhp.

Now like I said this is just a basic calculator and may not be even close. It just shows a comparison for talking. So they must really have a great set of E7 heads.

[KenCook]

Jamie
Paulk said in another thread that he picked up 0.13 taking out 250lbs with GT40's (according to his post)

[Rick Walsh]

This still just makes no sense to me because the gt40 always has made more power. This is like saying the gt40 and the e7 will make the same power because 50 pounds ain't nothin'. I've had both heads and I know the gt40's make more power, the e7's I have made some power but not like the gt40's. This is just confusing to understand the reasons.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale
Everyone just noticing this now, I made a post about this before remember(Lucy you got some splainen too doo).We did the math and came up with the same conclusion,(close to same power).If said best cam makes this much power with a set of gt 40s that on average flow about 20 or so cfm more than the e7s, those e7s would have to flow the same. Lets say E7 flows 165 cfm and take that # and do some calculating 165 times .257 = 42.40 times 8 =339.24 and for the gt 40s lets say 185 cfm times .257=47.54 times 8 =380 approx. HP at the crank. heads would have to be flowing very close to one another. Correct me if Im wrong .

[Brandon Alsept]

Everyone just noticing this now, I made a post about this before remember(Lucy you got some splainen too doo).We did the math and came up with the same conclusion,(close to same power).If said best cam makes this much power with a set of gt 40s that on average flow about 20 or so cfm more than the e7s, those e7s would have to flow the same. Lets say E7 flows 165 cfm and take that # and do some calculating 165 times .257 = 42.40 times 8 =339.24 and for the gt 40s lets say 185 cfm times .257=47.54 times 8 =380 approx. HP at the crank. heads would have to be flowing very close to one another. Correct me if Im wrong .

WOW you have alot better math formula than I did LOL.

[Ryan Hecox]

Everyone just noticing this now, I made a post about this before remember(Lucy you got some splainen too doo).We did the math and came up with the same conclusion,(close to same power).If said best cam makes this much power with a set of gt 40s that on average flow about 20 or so cfm more than the e7s, those e7s would have to flow the same. Lets say E7 flows 165 cfm and take that # and do some calculating 165 times .257 = 42.40 times 8 =339.24 and for the gt 40s lets say 185 cfm times .257=47.54 times 8 =380 approx. HP at the crank. heads would have to be flowing very close to one another. Correct me if Im wrong .


Tommy tried to tell everyone the heads on his car are the baddest E7 heads in the country. Rich challenges anyone to find a better set. He went through several hundred pairs to find the best ones. The proof is in the numbers.

[KenB]

Tommy tried to tell everyone the heads on his car are the baddest E7 heads in the country. Rich challenges anyone to find a better set. He went through several hundred pairs to find the best ones. The proof is in the numbers.

You guys keep going on and on about these magical heads.

Have you ever considered that someone acid ported them before Rich got them and he didn't notice? Has runner volume been check to asure this is not the case?

[KenCook]

more on order

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmd_blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/hot-buttered-popcorn.jpg

[Jonathan Paulk]

I just about to ask for some of that, Ken!!!

BTW, Tommy was torn down at BG, Thom did look at the heads....GUESS WHAT??



































LEGAL!!!!!!!

So, if you also want to run fast with a set of E7s, guess you need to also flow numerous sets of heads to find the best set....Somebody could do this with GT40s, too. But since you could run 250lbs lighter with the E7s, just find a set that flows nearly the same as a GT40s.....just takes time and money.....

[Brandon Alsept]

Tommy tried to tell everyone the heads on his car are the baddest E7 heads in the country. Rich challenges anyone to find a better set. He went through several hundred pairs to find the best ones. The proof is in the numbers.


They must really be some bad boys. Just looking at some flow #s from here and there and looks like you would have to find a set that flowed roughly 20% better than most E7s. Which I could see being possible to find a set that was cast that way just a lot of work and time to find them thats for sure.

[Ryan Hecox]

They must really be some bad boys. Just looking at some flow #s from here and there and looks like you would have to find a set that flowed roughly 20% better than most E7s. Which I could see being possible to find a set that was cast that way just a lot of work and time to find them thats for sure.


well, some people are willing to go the extra ten miles.

Those who work hardest shall be punished the most.

These shows from your hard work, Richs, Farmers, Tommys, etc....

"Hey guys... thanks for busting your ass to figure some shit out... here's a nice lead trophy for all your work.... We, the NMRA, Appreciate it" LOL

[KenCook]

I hope one day I can find a set of GT 40's that can flow 20% better then all others.

[Ryan Hecox]

You guys keep going on and on about these magical heads.

Have you ever considered that someone acid ported them before Rich got them and he didn't notice? Has runner volume been check to asure this is not the case?


Yes, it was considered and measured. No evidence was found pointing towards any port work.

Like I said before, hard work will be punished.

[Brandon Alsept]

well, some people are willing to go the extra ten miles.

Those who work hardest shall be punished the most.

These shows from your hard work, Richs, Farmers, Tommys, etc....

"Hey guys... thanks for busting your ass to figure some shit out... here's a nice lead trophy for all your work.... We, the NMRA, Appreciate it" LOL


True True...Maybe the NMRA has a lot of stock invested in a lead manufacture somewhere LOL.

[Tommy@JPC]

You guys keep going on and on about these magical heads. Yeap!

Have you ever considered that someone acid ported them before Rich got them and he didn't notice? Has runner volume been check to asure this is not the case? No they haven't been acid ported and yes the volume has been check. So here we are again, you might as well just say we're "CHEATERS". I know very well Rich,Mike,Justin and I are not and have never cheated ever. I personally been P&G'ed in Bradenton for you know the record we set offically and passed. I was torn down in B.G. with the engine checked and the Head disassembled w/ the valves/valve job/chamber size everything. Thom Bates thoroughly checked these heads. So basically your saying the Rich and Thom are blind??? And I know J.B./Mike/Ryan/Team JPC have been torn down more times than you can shake a stick at and have never once been deemed ILLEGAL OR HAVE CHEATED. So that's a bold statement. We did what you said and had a fresh set of eyes look at our set up. That was RICH GROH! We finally went all RGR. You know the guy who has won a few Championships over the years. So I really don't think we need to state the obvious about the horsepower. Brandon just hit the nail on the head. He is the only one thinking outside the box, which is what it takes in heads up.

Rick do you really think we didn't do other changes to the car to work with the new set up? Also we have far from a basic shortblock. We have some trick stuff that noone has, that takes years of testing and experience to find. I'm glad I was able to drive this car, it has alot of R&D wrapped up in one combo. No switching around to modular, just pushrod! So anymore questions. I won't give away our secrets but above explains it all.

[Tommy@JPC]

This still just makes no sense to me because the gt40 always has made more power. This is like saying the gt40 and the e7 will make the same power because 50 pounds ain't nothin'. I've had both heads and I know the gt40's make more power, the e7's I have made some power but not like the gt40's. This is just confusing to understand the reasons.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

There not your average set of E7's, that has been explained numerous times before. We have a great set of GT40's also, ie 11.46 @ 116+ GT40 Record. So there isn't really anything confusing about it. It took a lot of sets. We didn't just pull a set off a car we had out back and said here put these on the Serdi and throw some valves in it. Let's go get that Championship now.

[Shawn Johnson]

The NMRA checked runner volume on your heads Tommy....

That is the first I've head of them doing that on anyone....

What did they compare the numbers to?

[Tommy@JPC]

The NMRA checked runner volume on your heads Tommy....

That is the first I've head of them doing that on anyone....

What did they compare the numbers to?

Never said the NMRA checked that. Rich has, so I guess he's a liar??? :confused:

[Ryan Hecox]

The NMRA checked runner volume on your heads Tommy....

That is the first I've head of them doing that on anyone....

What did they compare the numbers to?


I believe they used to check runner volume back when Justin was the posterchild for NMRA teardowns.

Speaking of teardowns... when was the last time a racer protested another racer for a teardown? I know Mike tried to in Joliet 2005 and tech told him NO.

[Rick Walsh]

Yeap!
No they haven't been acid ported and yes the volume has been check. So here we are again, you might as well just say we're "CHEATERS". I know very well Rich,Mike,Justin and I are not and have never cheated ever. I personally been P&G'ed in Bradenton for you know the record we set offically and passed. I was torn down in B.G. with the engine checked and the Head disassembled w/ the valves/valve job/chamber size everything. Thom Bates thoroughly checked these heads. So basically your saying the Rich and Thom are blind??? And I know J.B./Mike/Ryan/Team JPC have been torn down more times than you can shake a stick at and have never once been deemed ILLEGAL OR HAVE CHEATED. So that's a bold statement. We did what you said and had a fresh set of eyes look at our set up. That was RICH GROH! We finally went all RGR. You know the guy who has won a few Championships over the years. So I really don't think we need to state the obvious about the horsepower. Brandon just hit the nail on the head. He is the only one thinking outside the box, which is what it takes in heads up.

Rick do you really think we didn't do other changes to the car to work with the new set up? Also we have far from a basic shortblock. We have some trick stuff that noone has, that takes years of testing and experience to find. I'm glad I was able to drive this car, it has alot of R&D wrapped up in one combo. No switching around to modular, just pushrod! So anymore questions. I won't give away our secrets but above explains it all.

I thought I heard last year at BG a certain white cobra was torn down at end of event and found to have illegal pistons and intake manifold and nothing done about it . I know things can get misconstrued but this is what I heard and if thats the case and this stuff is illegal I would not have any faith in what the tech dept. does or says. This if true would show favortism to a certain group and thats wrong. But the rules do state (Runners and combustion chambers must retain stock oem APPEARANCE. and the biggy Final acceptance at the discretion of nmra tech dept.

[KenCook]

Did a p/s car get tossed after qualifying in 2005 at BG?
A few cubes to many?

If I'm wrong I do apologize.

[Ryan Hecox]

I thought I heard last year at BG a certain white cobra was torn down at end of event and found to have illegal pistons and intake manifold and nothing done about it . I know things can get misconstrued but this is what I heard and if thats the case and this stuff is illegal I would not have any faith in what the tech dept. does or says. This if true would show favortism to a certain group and thats wrong. But the rules do state (Runners and combustion chambers must retain stock oem APPEARANCE. and the biggy Final acceptance at the discretion of nmra tech dept.

You heard wrong and this was clarified with Thom Bates in BG this year with Jeff Schmell. The rumor is not correct.
Nothing was deemed illegal in the engine or intake manifold. Nothing was even questionable. IF he had been found illegal he would not have been awarded the record or the points for the event. ALL runners in the intake manifold were untouched unported stock right out of the box. The heads are stage 2 cnc ported right from Fox Lake.

Why would tech even tear us down if we are favorites?

[Ryan Hecox]

Did a p/s car get tossed after qualifying in 2005 at BG?
A few cubes to many?

If I'm wrong I do apologize.


not a few too many but .1 of a cubic inch. That is the reason behind the 15 pound weight penalty over 311" not to exceed 313". Sometimes you have carnage and you need to hone a cylinder a bit and you will exceed 311". Now you dont have to throw your block away and start over just carry a few extra pounds.

Way to make it sound like Rich was the biggest cheater and busted for it. You would think .1 of a cubic inch was some sort of huge performance advantage the way you talk.

[Tommy@JPC]

. But the rules do state (Runners and combustion chambers must retain stock oem APPEARANCE. and the biggy Final acceptance at the discretion of nmra tech dept.
Ryan summed everything else up. Our Runners on the Intake and exhaust are stock, egr bumps and all! And the chambers are untouched also. Believe me Thom was amazed also, they were checked 100%!

[KenCook]

I didn't call anyone a cheater.
A statement was made about never failing tech. It was incorrect.



not a few too many but .1 of a cubic inch. That is the reason behind the 15 pound weight penalty over 311" not to exceed 313". Sometimes you have carnage and you need to hone a cylinder a bit and you will exceed 311". Now you dont have to throw your block away and start over just carry a few extra pounds.

Way to make it sound like Rich was the biggest cheater and busted for it. You would think .1 of a cubic inch was some sort of huge performance advantage the way you talk.

[Ryan Hecox]

I didn't call anyone a cheater.
A statement was made about never failing tech. It was incorrect.


sorry, I misunderstood. carry on.

[Jonathan Paulk]

All this talking about E7s, GT40s, lying and cheating is making me wanna race next season!!!!

[Tommy@JPC]

I didn't call anyone a cheater.
A statement was made about never failing tech. It was incorrect.

You just tried to make it sound worse than it was. You have a way of floating your words around a lot. I guess you really didn't call us a cheater on saturday of B.G.? Just in a few words?:rolleyes:

[Rick Walsh]

My apologies, I stand corrected. Like I said the grapevine has lots to say and only going on here say. Tell Rich Grow to flow a couple hundred more E7s I need a set better than yours Tommy.

[KenCook]

Tommy,
You made a loud statement in all caps.
I knew to a degree, it was wrong. I didn't think or say Rich cheated but I knew from being there that he failed.

I guess by the postings on here that I'm not the only one who was truly amazed about the E7's performance.

[Ian Mullane]

I hope one day I can find a set of GT 40's that can flow 20% better then all others.


Thats the difference between these guys and most everyone else. They aren't "hoping" they are doing. Not going to find them if you don't start now.:D

[Tommy@JPC]

Tommy,
You made a loud statement in all caps.
I knew to a degree, it was wrong. I didn't think or say Rich cheated but I knew from being there that he failed.

I guess by the postings on here that I'm not the only one who was truly amazed about the E7's performance.

I'm sorry about the caps and the .1 cubic inch. I guess that was the deciding factor. I've said it before we were amazed also, but we also know better than thinking it will be easy to do it with another set.

[Ian Mullane]

I guess by the postings on here that I'm not the only one who was truly amazed about the E7's performance.

Not surprised at all. We told Thom last year that the pushrods would run low 30's. He didn't believe us then.:rolleyes:

[KenB]

Yeap!
No they haven't been acid ported and yes the volume has been check. So here we are again, you might as well just say we're "CHEATERS". I know very well Rich,Mike,Justin and I are not and have never cheated ever. I personally been P&G'ed in Bradenton for you know the record we set offically and passed. I was torn down in B.G. with the engine checked and the Head disassembled w/ the valves/valve job/chamber size everything. Thom Bates thoroughly checked these heads. So basically your saying the Rich and Thom are blind??? And I know J.B./Mike/Ryan/Team JPC have been torn down more times than you can shake a stick at and have never once been deemed ILLEGAL OR HAVE CHEATED. So that's a bold statement. We did what you said and had a fresh set of eyes look at our set up. That was RICH GROH! We finally went all RGR. You know the guy who has won a few Championships over the years. So I really don't think we need to state the obvious about the horsepower. Brandon just hit the nail on the head. He is the only one thinking outside the box, which is what it takes in heads up.



Hold it one sec Lord Helmet, I never called you guys cheaters. A well done acid ported head can not be detected by the eye. Especially if you aren't looking for it. I thought it may have been overlooked. And don't tell me they are good because they passed tech because tech doesn't check that.


Nothing was deemed illegal in the engine or intake manifold. Nothing was even questionable. IF he had been found illegal he would not have been awarded the record or the points for the event. ALL runners in the intake manifold were untouched unported stock right out of the box.

I'm down with Eric but I'll still have to call BS. Yes, nothing was deemed illegal but there definitely was at least one thing. I didn't make a stink about it because I don't want to win that way, but there was definitely at least one think that was found that was illegal, I saw it with my own eyes. The same thing a Pure Street racer was told he couldn't run anymore mid-event unless he got rid of it. That was a couple of years ago.

[CarlosSobrino]

I think I have the 2nd best set of E7s ever made and guess what? THEY SUCK !!! Mine are MiniMe's compared to JPCs. And Ian, dont think WE only tested one set of heads and sat around "hoping". You of all people know what it takes to run these numbers.

[Ryan Hecox]

Hold it one sec Lord Helmet, I never called you guys cheaters. A well done acid ported head can not be detected by the eye. Especially if you aren't looking for it. I thought it may have been overlooked. And don't tell me they are good because they passed tech because tech doesn't check that.



I'm down with Eric but I'll still have to call BS. Yes, nothing was deemed illegal but there definitely was at least one thing. I didn't make a stink about it because I don't want to win that way, but there was definitely at least one think that was found that was illegal, I saw it with my own eyes. The same thing a Pure Street racer was told he couldn't run anymore mid-event unless he got rid of it. That was a couple of years ago.

Well if it was deemed illegal than how did it make it through techs inspection? You are still calling us cheaters if we had something that was illegal and knowingly ran it. I honestly don't know what you are talking about.

[Tommy@JPC]

Hold it one sec Lord Helmet, I never called you guys cheaters. A well done acid ported head can not be detected by the eye. Especially if you aren't looking for it. I thought it may have been overlooked. And don't tell me they are good because they passed tech because tech doesn't check that.[/QUOTE=KenB;15545] Now your calling me names and your still calling us cheaters with Erics motor. If it was illegal why was the record rewarded to Eric, the win rewarded to Eric?


[QUOTE=KenB;15545]
I'm down with Eric but I'll still have to call BS. Yes, nothing was deemed illegal but there definitely was at least one thing. I didn't make a stink about it because I don't want to win that way, but there was definitely at least one think that was found that was illegal, I saw it with my own eyes. The same thing a Pure Street racer was told he couldn't run anymore mid-event unless he got rid of it. That was a couple of years ago.

Your down with Eric, but not Ryan or JPC. It was Ryan's motor which was legal. So where is the discreption? It's called thinking outside of the box! Again why we think the 2v program has really not been exploited yet.

And I'll say I'm down with Steve G. He's a great guy.

[KenB]

Well if it was deemed illegal than how did it make it through techs inspection? You are still calling us cheaters if we had something that was illegal and knowingly ran it. I honestly don't know what you are talking about.

His block and heads were painted. That's illegal, no interpretation about it. Brad Meadows got nailed at Maple Grove a few years back for a painted intake. He was allowed to change it when it was brought up.

So Tom must have made the decision to 'let it slide'. Did it give you guys an advantage? Not unless it was hiding something and I don't think it was. But is it illegal and another racer was called on it in the past? Yes

Did I make a stink about it right there when I could have? No. I don't want to win like that.

[Shawn Johnson]

The heads are stage 2 cnc ported right from Fox Lake.




Don't say Stage 2 heads...

I believe Fox Lake Stage 2 heads have valves that are over the NMRA legal size.

[jclarkg]

This has been entertaining, but how will the big weight break you guys want be good for the class? The gt 40 makes more power and even you guys do not deny that. If you put the gt40 at or basically at the e7 weight then it will have and advantage over the class. I do find it truly amazing that a pair of e7's were found that flows like gt40's. I had a set of worked e7's that did'nt do as well as my gt40's. Worked was port matched to a fel pro 1250 gasket 1' into the head, shaved 30 thousandths and a competition valve job. I never ran these e7's in F/S, I only ran them in FFW's now defunct Trophy Stock class and they were legal for that class. I also have not called anybody a cheater here I'm just saying it's pretty amazing from what I have seen with my e7's. Take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

[Ryan Hecox]

Don't say Stage 2 heads...

I believe Fox Lake Stage 2 heads have valves that are over the NMRA legal size.


When they were purchased the Stage 2 heads were only port work, now they have a bunch of different options, my bad!

Ken, you are right. The engine was painted. But, techinally, since the engine leaked oil so bad and puffed so much, it was allowed to have a painted surface where ever oil was present :D (just playin)

[Tommy@JPC]

This has been entertaining, but how will the big weight break you guys want be good for the class? The gt 40 makes more power and even you guys do not deny that. If you put the gt40 at or basically at the e7 weight then it will have and advantage over the class. I do find it truly amazing that a pair of e7's were found that flows like gt40's. I had a set of worked e7's that did'nt do as well as my gt40's. Worked was port matched to a fel pro 1250 gasket 1' into the head, shaved 30 thousandths and a competition valve job. I never ran these e7's in F/S, I only ran them in FFW's now defunct Trophy Stock class and they were legal for that class. I also have not called anybody a cheater here I'm just saying it's pretty amazing from what I have seen with my e7's. Take it easy.



It's hard to say that 100% because Jonathan had the 2nd quickest GT40 car this year and tested 250lbs light and ran solid 11.43. So like I said 100 times I changed more than the heads. And we were already ahead of the curve with our GT40's. I do not think they need 250lbs. They do need 150lbs thought. 50lbs to a 4v. Leave the e7's and 2v's alone for the beginning and when Ken and Steve get done with their purpose built engine (finally) they can put weight on them after Bradenton:) Sorry Steve:(

[Ian Mullane]

I think I have the 2nd best set of E7s ever made and guess what? THEY SUCK !!! Mine are MiniMe's compared to JPCs. And Ian, dont think WE only tested one set of heads and sat around "hoping". You of all people know what it takes to run these numbers.

You were running great in BG Carlos but the story I got is you were still running a stock cam so I expect you could have run much better if you were pushing the rules. If this is incorrect I'm sorry. I guess I'm just sick of all the insinuations of cheating on the internet yet when we are at the races nobody wants to do anything about it. If you think someone is cheating put up the money. Like Ryan said earlier, no competitor has paid to have someone torn down since 2004 when Mike supplemented Shawns racing budget.

[Brandon Alsept]

Very Very true Ian.

[Mike Washington]

If there is one word in the dictionary that I hate more than anything else, its the word:

Cheater

I believe in hard work, determination, and pride!

Just like anyone else in the class, we WANT to win. When a car is ahead of the pack or doing something someone else can't figure out, they are labeled cheaters. M'ther F'ing BS

We have been outspoken about tech in the past. We have NO problem putting our $$$ up to determine a cars legality. Do I believe everyone I tear down is cheating, NO! I just want to make sure for the betterment of the class, everything is Kosher. If you don't wanna take your junk apart, go race somewhere else! I believe Tear downs are a necessary thing. If the NMRA does not do it, I feel its the obligation of the racers to do it, rather than pointing fingers on the Internet.

Bring your $$$ to Bradenton...........


As far as the E7's........
Yeah we found something there, along with a host of other changes that rewarded us with reduced ET's.

We were subject to a teardown in BG. Rightfully so! The heads were checked and scrutinized. CC's were measured, Intake and exhaust ports were measured, runners were visually checked as was the valve job. Valves were measured along with Bore and Stroke. The NMRA deemed the engine legal. Again, If anyone does not believe the NMRA findings, bring your $$$$ to Bradenton!

If there was a such thing as a magic part, don't you think Summit would advertise it in there Catalog?

Laters
Mike Washington

[Tommy@JPC]

You were running great in BG Carlos but the story I got is you were still running a stock cam so I expect you could have run much better if you were pushing the rules. If this is incorrect I'm sorry. I guess I'm just sick of all the insinuations of cheating on the internet yet when we are at the races nobody wants to do anything about it. If you think someone is cheating put up the money. Like Ryan said earlier, no competitor has paid to have someone torn down since 2004 when Mike supplemented Shawns racing budget.

Exactly, everyone likes to point the finger but not put up the cash. They would rather whine and make us teardown for free. At least Mike Paid Shawn:)

[Ryan Hecox]

Way to take the wind out of this fun debate. The ship has now sunk and the horse is dead.

I'm out!

[jclarkg]

I'm gonna take up for Rick here. Now let me preface this by saying I'm not accusing or calling out anybody I'm just stating reasons for the perception about Erics car. I have heard the rumor like everybody else that the white Cobra was not legal in the teardown after Kentucky last year. Now that car has not ran near what it ran in Kentucky last year so the perception is that the rumor must be true that it was not legal and could not show up with what it had previuosly. I am not casting any dispersions here I'm just trying to show you guys the other side of the coin. I know that there might have been problems that slowed the car down and made it not perform like it did previously because I have had that happen and been down that path with my car also. I have met Eric at Reynolds one time and I thought he was a very nice dude and I have no problem with him. I am just trying to give the reason why Rick would post what he posted earlier. Also other guys work just as hard if not harder but just do not get the results. Take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

[Ryan Hecox]

Jamie,

Erics car had alot of problems this year. He even took it to KenB to try and help, and with no luck the car just wouldnt run the number. Ken put alot of effort into Erics car also and he knows the exact numbers it made compared to Steves car. It definately had nothing to do with the engine. I own the engine that was in Erics car and it will be out again next season. So, bring your wallets boys and girls, theres gonna be some tear downs in 2008!

[Brandon Alsept]

Working Hard and Working Smart are two different things Jamie. You being a farmer should know that;)

I know of at least two things I saw on Tommy's car that was different and I am sure that helped towards the myth of the magic bean E7s

[Brandon Alsept]

Jamie,

Erics car had alot of problems this year. He even took it to KenB to try and help, and with no luck the car just wouldnt run the number. Ken put alot of effort into Erics car also and he knows the exact numbers it made compared to Steves car. It definately had nothing to do with the engine. I own the engine that was in Erics car and it will be out again next season. So, bring your wallets boys and girls, theres gonna be some tear downs in 2008!


As long as we can start before 7:00 in the afternoon I am good to go;)

[Ryan Hecox]

As long as we can start before 7:00 in the afternoon I am good to go;)



I really do feel sorry for you 4v guys. Having been a former 4v guy, without teardown exp, I feel bad. But, you made your bed, now you must lay in it.

I think Thom will agree to allow me to tear you down long before 7pm ;)

It takes long for Thom to tech me than it does to tear it down and put it back together.

[Brandon Alsept]

I really do feel sorry for you 4v guys. Having been a former 4v guy, without teardown exp, I feel bad. But, you made your bed, now you must lay in it.

I think Thom will agree to allow me to tear you down long before 7pm ;)

It takes long for Thom to tech me than it does to tear it down and put it back together.


Oh not complaining about my bed. LOL so when you tearing me down so I can plan on it.:D

[Eric@JPC]

1st thing i have to say is that im pretty fu*ken tired of being called a cheater. Every time i turned around i hear a " i heard you were cheating last year" Well to all that think that FU*K YOU... how about that. I raced this class like every one eles, to prove that i had what i took to hang with all my compition!!!! I have never cheated nor will i ever. Yea my car ran like shit this year. i worked my ass off to figure out why. i spent mopre time at the track then i care to talk about, and have over 125 dyno pulls. Yea i did have to change something in my motor for this year becasue they re-wrote the rules, and for 07 it was it was no longer allowed. I would have to say that does not classify me as a cheater... My dont be mad becasue he figured out away to go fast!!!

so bottom line IF i come back to factory stock next year its not goin to be to make friends, becasue i thought i had some? my only purpose will to be kick every ones ass. I have spent every dollar i have made in the past 2 years to get where im at (in everyones eyes i guess im just a no good cheater). So i guess if i do race next year ill just have to make some more money so i can make a whole season.

But yea my car ran like shit this year so thanks for pointing that out... i though i was right on par?

You guys can continue to call me what ever the FU*K you want, but at the end of the year i still had

a Win at National Trail
a Bowling Green Win
National Record
and a Number 3 for last year

so if i was really cheating at the end of the year would i still have the last 3.... oh i forgot the NMRA was lazy

see ya Fu*ken later
Eric Cheating Holliday

[Tommy@JPC]

Working Hard and Working Smart are two different things Jamie. You being a farmer should know that;)

I know of at least two things I saw on Tommy's car that was different and I am sure that helped towards the myth of the magic bean E7s

The magic beans did help but I've said a few times, that wasn't all:D

[Jonathan Paulk]

The gt 40 makes more power and even you guys do not deny that. If you put the gt40 at or basically at the e7 weight then it will have and advantage over the class.

I have been bitting my tounge long enough.....On my car with my/Justin's motor and my GT40s (according to Rich, one the best set of flowing GT40s he has seen) made less power but carried that power further in the RPM band compared to Justin's motor and Justin's E7s, that we finished putting together Saturday after noon at BG, that made more power than the GT40s/mine & Justin's motor but does not carry the power. In BG against Brian the car just fell over after third gear...no idea...Put the car on the dyno right after BG and found it makes more power that the GT40 motor, but a little less than the motor in Tommy's car. BTW the shortblock that we used at BG is the one that Tommy used the first half of the season....
Keep in mind I did have problems getting the car to start at BG, it would just come and go. At Ford Fever race it did it again....that starter would barely turning over, putting alot of drain on the battery, and the car would lay over in 3rd. Finally figured out the starter is dead, replaced that and the car would start by just tapping the key...and the car ran better on the big end. With no weight in the car, the shock was almost fully extended and would never let the car hook (thanks Ryan for pointing that out)...so the 60ft was very inconsitent, therefore the ET was very inconstitent. At the last minute I decided to race at Ford Fever, didn't leave me alot of time to go over the entire chassis with all the weight out of. Looks like some chackled up late 70s Camaro!!!
Just like Eric said, all this talk of calling Eric cheating just makes us wanna come back to kick everybody's butt!! I worked as hard as could busting my a$$ on my VERY limited budget!!! Just ask my wife!!!! Justin has helped me alot this year getting to a couple races. Thank you is just not enough to show how much I appreciate his help. She said when all of our bills are paid off she will not care how much money I spent on racing!!!! That is one reason I am taking off next season, that was before I got orders to move to another country...So I can come back in FULL FORCE!!!! BTW, when you call somebody in our team cheating, you are calling the whole team cheating. Team JPC works together on every car. When we go testing each of us works hard to make each other's car faster. From chassis setups, to shift points, down to driving technique. We are team with one goal, to WIN!!!

[Tommy@JPC]

I feel a lot of back pedaling coming around the corner. It's like an instant replay of svtperformance.:p

[Eric@JPC]

Don't say Stage 2 heads...

I believe Fox Lake Stage 2 heads have valves that are over the NMRA legal size.

They passed Tech with flying colors...... I guess they over looked that aswell................

they are legal valves. i watch them check it

WTF did i do to deserve all this?

Yea my heads were painted it was a fu*ken mistake. Guess im some kinda dildo now that the entire factory stock class has to discuss. ok and thom said it was not allowed but, when they were painted i clearly taped off all intake and exhaust ports so in his eyes i was not trying to hide anything it was a simple mistake.

oh but now that paint is why i ran 11.40 last year. my bad i guess thats why my car ran like total ass this year. holy shit why didnt i think of that before!!!!

[Eric@JPC]

i forgot to metion...

i have the 2nd best E7 heads, and none of you fags can have them!!!!!!!

[Alan Cann]

[QUOTE=Jonathan Paulk;15576]Put the car on the dyno right after BG and found it makes more power that the GT40 motor]

If this is the case then the rules need to be analyzed a little closer. You are saying that an E7 combination makes more power than some of the best flowing GT-40 heads ever produced. The performance coincides with what you are claiming. At an E7 weight, taking out 250lbs, your car ran 11.43@117.65 w/a killer 60'. Not close to what Tommy ran at BG with the E7's. Maybe GT-40's should get the weight break.

BTW, after the problem was figured out what has the car gone with the E7's

[KenB]

Boy, you guys really get guilty conscience. When did I ever call you a cheater Eric? I said you had something illegal on your engine and you were given a 'pass' on it. There's really no gray area.

Now, does that make you a cheater? No. A cheater to me who did something on purpose that is illegal to gain an advantage. I don't think that is what you were doing.


BUT, it is illegal and that is that. So if anything, you just didn't know the rules and made a mistake. That doesn't keep it from being illegal. I wouldn't have even brought it up but those guy kept going on and on about the tear down and the truth is the truth. If you're pissed at me, that sucks. But I don't think I did anything wrong so it's really on you.


Ken

[Eric@JPC]

Boy, you guys really get guilty conscience. When did I ever call you a cheater Eric? I said you had something illegal on your engine and you were given a 'pass' on it. There's really no gray area.

Now, does that make you a cheater? No. A cheater to me who did something on purpose that is illegal to gain an advantage. I don't think that is what you were doing.


BUT, it is illegal and that is that. So if anything, you just didn't know the rules and made a mistake. That doesn't keep it from being illegal. I wouldn't have even brought it up but those guy kept going on and on about the tear down and the truth is the truth. If you're pissed at me, that sucks. But I don't think I did anything wrong so it's really on you.


Ken

its not that im mad at YOU... its im mad about the whole situation... i have been called a cheater all ****en year. Im just sick of it!

Also the Fact that no one belives that there is prolly over 500 man hours in finding those heads on Tommys car. No one gets it, thats what i dont understand.

[Chalie Sr.]

Hi Guys,
I put the popcorn down. I have been racing a long time. When you are the fastest out there , there will always be whispers. How are they going that fast? It is tough when you are the big dog! There is jealousy and like I said there will always be whispers, about how you can go that fast. If Thom
tore you down and you passed than you are legal. I have found that if someone is cheating than they will be caught ! So far that hasn't happened.
Everyone be proud of what you have accomplished! If you win you are the best! I hope everyone comes back next year! I owe all of you some payback!
It s on It's way! Johnathan , good luck on your mission ! I guess you will have to wait for yours . Just a little wisdom and some smack from the Old Man!
See You All In Florida,

[Ryan Hecox]

I think Thom takes his position in the NMRA very seriously no matter how good of a friend you think you are with him. If you are cheating he will throw you out. There is no grey areas only black and white. You are either a cheater or your not and Thom doesnt take cheating lightly. I pride myself on hard work and honesty. If you cant be honest to yourself, then you suck at life. You dont see me jumping up and down saying Brandon cheated when he ran that 10.19. I believe Brandon sandbagged after Michigan but never would I think he cheated. He passed the same teardown I did, as did Jimmy and Tommy. He has worked hard, his hard work showed and earned himself an nice lead trophy to carry around. Congrats Brandon!

[Brandon Alsept]

I pride myself on hard work and honesty. If you cant be honest to yourself, then you suck at life.

That is why you are a respected competitor for all of us in the class. These F/S guys are all antsy in the pantsy LOL.


You dont see me jumping up and down saying Brandon cheated when he ran that 10.19. I believe Brandon sandbagged after Michigan but never would I think he cheated. He passed the same teardown I did, as did Jimmy and Tommy. He has worked hard, his hard work showed and earned himself an nice lead trophy to carry around. Congrats Brandon!

LOL I have told you many time I didn't sandbag after MI I got lost in my car so to say. I sat back after Columbus and went back to the basics and got back on track. I will look any person in the face and tell them I have never sandbagged nor do I plan to start. Did I take it easy the first elimination rounds in BG sure but why chance hurting the car. Thanks for reminding me that my due date for my new lead baby is nearing LOL.

[Tommy@JPC]

Boy, you guys really get guilty conscience. When did I ever call you a cheater Eric? I said you had something illegal on your engine and you were given a 'pass' on it. There's really no gray area.

Now, does that make you a cheater? No. A cheater to me who did something on purpose that is illegal to gain an advantage. I don't think that is what you were doing.


BUT, it is illegal and that is that. So if anything, you just didn't know the rules and made a mistake. That doesn't keep it from being illegal. I wouldn't have even brought it up but those guy kept going on and on about the tear down and the truth is the truth. If you're pissed at me, that sucks. But I don't think I did anything wrong so it's really on you.


Ken


Are you pulling out your Lance edition TREK's and pedaling away? I know we're all guilty for defending ourselves. Eric and his satin black.:rolleyes:

[Tommy@JPC]

That is why you are a respected competitor for all of us in the class. These F/S guys are all antsy in the pantsy LOL.



Your classes come in here and argue with us. R/S , P/S. We just try to liven up the board! Who really cares. All I know is I'm

#1 For now.:D Lord Helmet has spoken.

[KenCook]

All that I know is that I'm in 7th place out of 12 in a $5k Fantasy Football league and my team has sucked all year :(

[Jonathan Paulk]

[QUOTE=Jonathan Paulk;15576]Put the car on the dyno right after BG and found it makes more power that the GT40 motor]

If this is the case then the rules need to be analyzed a little closer. You are saying that an E7 combination makes more power than some of the best flowing GT-40 heads ever produced. The performance coincides with what you are claiming. At an E7 weight, taking out 250lbs, your car ran 11.43@117.65 w/a killer 60'. Not close to what Tommy ran at BG with the E7's. Maybe GT-40's should get the weight break.

BTW, after the problem was figured out what has the car gone with the E7's

Even thoug it made more peak power, but don't forget it didn't carry the power through the RPM band like the GT40s do...

Nope, did not have a chance to test the car with a Cobra intake after we found the problem. We had to run a stock intake at Ford Fever, and I just sold my GT40 heads and Cobra intake. And this weekend I am pulling out the motor...

[Brandon Alsept]

Your classes come in here and argue with us. R/S , P/S. We just try to liven up the board! Who really cares. All I know is I'm

#1 For now.:D Lord Helmet has spoken.

Yeah yeah we are going to get you a new set of lead shoes to keep you from floating off LOL.

[Shawn Johnson]

They passed Tech with flying colors...... I guess they over looked that aswell................

they are legal valves. i watch them check it

WTF did i do to deserve all this?

Yea my heads were painted it was a fu*ken mistake. Guess im some kinda dildo now that the entire factory stock class has to discuss. ok and thom said it was not allowed but, when they were painted i clearly taped off all intake and exhaust ports so in his eyes i was not trying to hide anything it was a simple mistake.

oh but now that paint is why i ran 11.40 last year. my bad i guess thats why my car ran like total ass this year. holy shit why didnt i think of that before!!!!


I didn't say you were running them with the bigger valves... I didn't say anything about you cheating either... I just put that up for Ryan so he could clarify and not be accused later…
Ryan put Stage 2 … if someone calls Ron and says send me the Stage 2 heads like Eric has and they get them and the valve are to big it would look bad…

I believe you and I spoke one on one about this talk of you cheating…. And I believe that we discussed gray areas and things like that but I do not consider or call you a cheater…

And yes there are GRAY areas…or UNDIFINED rules… does not mean anyone is cheating… just means they found something to exploit and if the NMRA doesn’t like it they will DEFINE the rule…..

Maybe they found a GRAY area in the E7 heads…..doesn’t make it illegal just UNDIFINED….if the NMRA didn’t like it they will CLARIFY it for the new rules.

[Tommy@JPC]

Yeah yeah we are going to get you a new set of lead shoes to keep you from floating off LOL.

I don't care. Still #1:D :D :D :D

[Bob Cosby]

Just want to poke in to say two things....

1) I liked being called a "cheater". It is the most sincere form of flattery.....and the flatterer doesn't even know they're doing it.

2) The amount of testing I did and dyno passes I made in winning my 2004 Championship would SHOCK everyone of you - likely without exception.

Probably. Maybe not Carlos.

Carry on, please.

[Bob Cosby]

Oh ya.

http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/cobra/images/trdown1a.jpg

neener neener neener

[Brr Mrr]

I LIke all this>>>>Where is the Beer????????????Eric I'll be your friend...I'll pull for you next season....The season is over great job to all and good luck to you next season......I'll Come visit.. Tommy I owe you a Drink....The Farmer too.
Brr Mrr

[CarlosSobrino]

Oh ya.

http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/cobra/images/trdown1a.jpg

neener neener neener

Looks like Al had more hair back then doesnt it?

[f/s 4valve]

ok here we go. eric is not a cheater he is winner and if he decides to keep racing he will win again. now for season recap tommy jeff jonathon and me were close and i got faster and still didnt win.then tommy jeff and j paulk stayed the same and i got faster. then jeff got agear and got faster tommy got slower i got 25llbs and stayed the same and still didnt win. then jeff and i got really fast tommy got slower and i still didnt win. then tommy and jeff got really fast but not fast enough and finally won.to sum it up everybody in this class works ther ass off i think the people who win surround there selves with great people i am very lucky to have ken and modular depot tommy and jp. and eric have jpc. jeff and brian have pauls hp. this heads up racing thing is tough ther is fine line between winning and just being on the ladder. guys we had 5 winners this year that is unheard of in f/s might have alot to do wih that freak of nature from grand rapids not racing btw that i am 2 and 1 against.everybody in this class wants to win. and in my experiance it simply comes down to the choices that you make we all make good ones and bad ones its when you eliminate the bad ones that you can sip the milk.

[stangfireman]

Now I'll be honest and say I haven't read this whole post. I haven't been racing in a few years and I just like to read the crap after the year is over and how much this needs that or whatever. But I'll throw in my thoughts on the E7's.
As some may know I ran E7's in 2004. My best ET was a 12.04 and best mph was 113 and change with a factory ford cam from whatever year they were made. Do they still make a 5.0? LOL Now I haven't gone over all the new rules, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
chamber cc is smaller now then back then
allowed different duration cam
Any other major rule changes I missed? And one more thing that everyone seems to discount is the fact that JPC has years of experience in FS and have had some of the best performing chassis's out there.
Now in my opinion, I can see how they kicked ass in BG. Maybe if I had been able to continue racing, with todays rules, I might have been right there too.
So fight nice kids! It's the same BS at the end of every season. LOL

[CarlosSobrino]

They also allow long tube headers and acid ported heads.. JUST KIDDING JUST KIDDING !!! Seriously Todd, long tubes headers allowed.

[stangfireman]

So let's see, long tubes, hot cams, 52cc chambers. DAMN! Wish they had these rules back when I could afford to race. LOL
I remember Justin questioning my 113+mph in columbus when the car was cutting 1.54 60fts. But I couldn't get an 11 second pass to save my life. I'd say he's a believer now. :D

[Jonathan Paulk]

Todd....what rear gear did you have with the E7s??

[stangfireman]

I ran the 12.04 in Fla with the 4.56's and 113 with 4.30's.

[Bob Cosby]

Still intend to keep track of the ole' girl. :)

[stangfireman]

Still intend to keep track of the ole' girl. :)

I know you will Bob. :) Be nice if she came out next year with E7's. LOL

[KenCook]

and no light weight anything. (It actually says that) :D

[jclarkg]

Alright let me get this straight. Both Jpc cars made more power with E7's? The GT40's just carried the power band out a little further but did not make more power than the E7's? Take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

[KenB]

Alright let me get this straight. Both Jpc cars made more power with E7's? The GT40's just carried the power band out a little further but did not make more power than the E7's? Take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale or motor for sale

They must have spent another 500 hours looking for those heads. lol


Ken

[Jonathan Paulk]

Actually, those we found in a pile scrap metal.....LOL LOL!!!!

[Tommy@JPC]

Let's lay it to rest. The car makes HP, it's made up of more little things that no other pushrod car in the class has including Jo'nathan's. We passed Tech tear down with flying colors, so what's the reason for still talking about it. Evolution...;)

[Brandon Alsept]

Wonder how many people are calling all there buddies wanting to know if they have some E7s they can test out;)