Rules For 2008?

[Chalie Sr.]

Hello All,
Alright I will be the one to get it started! I have been drag racing and watching it for 35 years. Watch the old guy jokes! Kentucky was the best racing I have seen yet! The final 3 cars , one pushrod, one 2 valve,
one 4 valve. I hope they don't mess it up! Those 3 cars were the best of the best! Great driving, alot of testing and hard work and money were put into all 3 programs and it showed ! I wish I could come up with a idea that would bring more cars in, but I can't. I love going fast ! So I hope they don't try and slow us down again! Leave it alone! I would like to hear what everyone thinks. I do have a major question about the e -7s . I hope I will get a answer from Tom On it. If they change anything I hope it involves weight changes , as that is the least expense!
Let It Rip!

[Shawn Johnson]

Weight changes is the only thing needed..
As I stated in the other thread.

take off 100#s to 125#s for the 4valves
and 200#s for the 3valves

[KenCook]

I made a web based page incase this is not clear.
Here is the big 3.
Left to right is in order, quals to elims.

http://www.advancedautorepair.net/big3.JPG

[KenCook]

html version.

http://www.advancedautorepair.net/big3-bg.htm

[Chalie Sr.]

Well,
If you look at the qualifying order at Kentucky the gt 40 guys need some help. In saying that. I'm sure it will be said that maybe we should be comparing Tommy's numbers with the gt40's, Maybe a weight break for the 3 valves would bring some into the class. Everyone will lobby for more for there combo , but like I said it was close at the end!

[KenCook]

without a doubt gt40's, 4v and 3v need something. (less weight)
I'm sure the 2v's will be quicker over the winter as Steve and Ken did so just about every race.

[Tommy@JPC]

This is my take.

3v: -200lbs to start
4v: -50lbs ( I think there's more to be had from the 4v combo: )
GT40's: -150lbs (We've tested lighter, it needs help)
2v w/ported heads: +25lbs ( I think there's more left in the port work and cams )
E7's: Stay

I know it looks bias w/the E7's but I don't forsee anymore real power to be made with no port work, nor do I want to port these heads. Remember there were 2 other E7 cars on the property last weekend and it didn't help.

Also keep in mind I very well will not be running next year.:(

[KenB]

What data are you using to say 100-125 lbs Shawn? I don't see it. Please explain.

[Shawn Johnson]

What data are you using to say 100-125 lbs Shawn? I don't see it. Please explain.

11:30 to 11:41 would be 100#s....

I feel the 4v is not going to gain anything from here... I don't know where Tommy thinks they can....no punch intended... just that the 4vs do not have anything to work with...

I threw in the 25#s because I believe the 2v and 5.0 (E7) will gain from where they were at BG..

In short:
Using all the run data from 07 100#s off the 4v for the 2008 opener is a fair step.

[Shawn Johnson]

From Tommy:
Is Jeffs car gutted???? Like is all the heater core/blower motors, everything behind the dash gone? If not, gut it and make it a race car like ours and put the weight in the trunk. I'm sure that would help out. If it's already that way. I say 50lbs maybe 75lbs. But if the 4v gets that, the GT40 should maybe go 175lbs. 3v's, knock off 200lbs and let's get some out there.


I have been through this argument the last two seasons when JPC said my car wasn't a true race car because of the stereo....:rolleyes:

The 4vs need to weigh 3400#s ...... to get the chassis to work as it should you look to get a good balance front to back..... weight is weight..... it doesn't matter what is making the weight…. We worked on Jeff’s car this year and it is 60’ in the mid to high 50s…. in FS that is in the TOP 60’ times… Jeff has weight on the back of the car and it is balanced to match the suspension set up… Just putting more weight in the trunk will not help if the car is already working with the top in the class….52% to the rear is good for doing wheel stand s but wheel stands are not good for ET….There is a point where the car comes up too fast to load the radial tire correctly….


Ken…..
I did not see Steve’s 60’ times for BG I thought they were in the 60s….


And as far as next season they could be a 4v in FS… a new racer is looking to buy the motor out of Jeff’s car… He is new to heads up and I would like to see him get a fair shot at run

[Tommy@JPC]

11:30 to 11:41 would be 100#s....

I feel the 4v is not going to gain anything from here... I don't know where Tommy thinks they can....no punch intended... just that the 4vs do not have anything to work with... I think Jeff's car is not the best set up that could be had. I know weight is weight but it could be utilized better. Also I'll say this for Jeff since he likes to say it about me, maybe check driver light? Punch, Punch. I was enlightened on a certain comment made and I'm game any day of the week.


I threw in the 25#s because I believe the 2v and 5.0 (E7) will gain from where they were at BG.. Maybe the 2v's since they can work on a port program and cams. The E7's are not the pushrods magic pill, I'm not going into any details on our program but if I was to build a pushrod for next year I would wait on the rules. Your better with a GT40 for sure.
The E7 is not what should be judge buy on the Pushrods. The GT40 needs more help than anyone. It's by far the slowest and least power producing combo. Best fluke pass was a .46 in great air with a 1.55 launch. Never went faster than a .52 the rest of the year, also 116mph is not cutting the mustard either. It needs a solid 200lbs worst case 150lbs. Now before you say whoa, we've tested light and it's not pretty. It's still not running low .30s in 3000ft.

In short:
Using all the run data from 07 100#s off the 4v for the 2008 opener is a fair step.
50lbs is a fair step for the 4v's. Then mid season you guys can put you changes in again. You were within .1 of the quickest pass ever. Try testing some new parts and maybe you'll find something. I did, how do you think I picked up a lot between Columbus and B.G. I didn't just go to the track and keep on running the same crap. All you guys is want want want, why not work work work. Change something other than holding your hand out.

Oh yeah Steve's car was 60fted the same as Jeff 1.57's. So like I said 50lbs and work on it!

Don't take my comments as wrong either. I'm not mad at what your proposing. But all we see are hands out.

If I'm wrong about your testing and you've been trying different parts for real or did you not want to change anything?

Also we are not talking about your car with the stereo. It's we are running gutted race cars. You can do more with ballast than drop it in the trunk. I know you know that.

[Shawn Johnson]

50lbs is a fair step for the 4v's. Then mid season you guys can put you changes in again. You were within .1 of the quickest pass ever. Try testing some new parts and maybe you'll find something. I did, how do you think I picked up a lot between Columbus and B.G. I didn't just go to the track and keep on running the same crap. All you guys is want want want, why not work work work. Change something other than holding your hand out.

Oh yeah Steve's car was 60fted the same as Jeff 1.57's. So like I said 50lbs and work on it!

Don't take my comments as wrong either. I'm not mad at what your proposing. But all we see are hands out.

If I'm wrong about your testing and you've been trying different parts for real or did you not want to change anything?

Also we are not talking about your car with the stereo. It's we are running gutted race cars. You can do more with ballast than drop it in the trunk. I know you know that.


Well I guess the same can be said about the GT40… don’t hold your hand out … do some work…

I know you are new to FS but the 4valve motor has been the same for years now… We have been testing parts and parts on that motor for the last five years… and we teamed up with Jeff for 07 and used everything he has tried for the past seven years and put it with what we knew…(Jeff has raced EVERY race since I believe 2001)… What parts do you want us to try… Everything has to be stock untouched…
The cams can not be cut they have to be STOCK… The heads can not be touched… should we acid port them????....The intake can not be touched… We have tried (between Jeff and I) over ten different intakes... There is only ONE header…. We have the lightest crank/rods and we have custom pistons John and Mike designed.. We have tested multiple piston designs…. Diamond has been great about that… The NMRA took the CCs away last year… (Which everyone seems to forget).. You will not be able to get any more compression then we have now…


Do not start on this holding hands out crap…why do the 5.0L have CAMS and HEADERS????? Don’t tell me the 5.0L camps never asked for anything….they asked for so much I had to build a whole new car after the first championship…at least I not asking to slow anyone down…

And as far as you testing parts and running better after Columbus…OK …. How much weight did you take out after Columbus???? You were able to try a different head combo that allowed you to take out a lot of weight… where is that possible for the 4vs?!!!
They can not port remember…. They can not try a different head and take weight out… They can not try different cams……they can not try different headers…..They can not try different throttle bodies….They can not try different intakes…… etc

Where should we look for this new HP to make up a tenth…?

Do you really think that 100#s for the 4v and they will run away with the class?

[KenCook]

Its early and I have enough popcorn to hold me off until the First set of rules come out.

http://davidschwartz.com/blog/wp-content/popcorn_100000.jpg

[Shawn Johnson]

All that popcorn and talk for 100#s......

and Tommy and I are not even running next season...:D

[Jonathan Paulk]

I have an idea about Jeff's 4V, actually KenB said it....how about let somebody else look at your program...a different set of eyes......HE HE HE

[KenB]

…. They can not try a different head and take weight out…

Yes they can. It's called a 2V head.

[Ian Mullane]

Yes they can. It's called a 2V head.

Tried that too;)

[CarlosSobrino]

Its early and I have enough popcorn to hold me off until the First set of rules come out.

http://davidschwartz.com/blog/wp-content/popcorn_100000.jpg

Lmao !!!!

I have to agree with most of everything said so far. 200# off 3v, 175# off GT40s, 75# off 4v and and add 800# to Steve.

[KenCook]

Do you realize how ridicules that sounds after your BG performance with E7's?


The E7's are not the pushrods magic pill, I'm not going into any details on our program but if I was to build a pushrod for next year I would wait on the rules. Your better with a GT40 for sure.

[Dave Patti]

Just to throw it out there...

As compared to slowing down Factory Stock, the 08 rules should speed it up to a 10.80 - 11.0 competitive class using stock ported heads, stock intake, limited cam specs, long tubes for 4 valves, weight variations, etc. The class is already nipping on the heels of Pure Street with the 2 valve and 5.0L heads/cam modifications.

Factory Stock, has already become a little expensive for the average Joe to register and participate in. The time and money it takes to be competitive, many cannot afford, and if they can, may decide to participate in a faster class instead.

If Factory Stock has outgrown its grass roots, then Rules for 08 should incorporate a new class - something such as "Manufacturer stock", where only bolt ons are allowed and weight separates the cars. Something where a 11.80 - 12.0 car is competitive and not a "filler". This would be the new entry level class and the payouts of the existing classes would then increase.

[Tommy@JPC]

Well I guess the same can be said about the GT40… don’t hold your hand out … do some work…

Ha Ha Ha, The GT40 is pretty maxed out sorry, you do not know what your talking about. It's good for a possible low .40 pass with a 1.55 or better 60ft in 800-1800ft of air. Yes we've tested numerous cams. We have the Billy Bad Ass Shortblock and a badass set of heads. We can't play with port work or different intakes either.:D


I know you are new to FS but the 4valve motor has been the same for years now… We have been testing parts and parts on that motor for the last five years… and we teamed up with Jeff for 07 and used everything he has tried for the past seven years and put it with what we knew…(Jeff has raced EVERY race since I believe 2001)… What parts do you want us to try… Everything has to be stock untouched…
The cams can not be cut they have to be STOCK… The heads can not be touched… should we acid port them????....The intake can not be touched… We have tried (between Jeff and I) over ten different intakes... There is only ONE header…. We have the lightest crank/rods and we have custom pistons John and Mike designed.. We have tested multiple piston designs…. Diamond has been great about that… The NMRA took the CCs away last year… (Which everyone seems to forget).. You will not be able to get any more compression then we have now… There are parts on my car that I changed that anyone can change to find more power, should I reveal what I do to help everyone else out. It takes alittle extra thought,time and parts. There are things on that car that can be changed and it will go faster.


Do not start on this holding hands out crap…why do the 5.0L have CAMS and HEADERS????? Don’t tell me the 5.0L camps never asked for anything….they asked for so much I had to build a whole new car after the first championship…at least I not asking to slow anyone down…
To catch up with the stock style 4v stuff. Pretty obvious I thought?


And as far as you testing parts and running better after Columbus…OK …. How much weight did you take out after Columbus???? You were able to try a different head combo that allowed you to take out a lot of weight… where is that possible for the 4vs?!!!
They can not port remember…. They can not try a different head and take weight out… They can not try different cams……they can not try different headers…..They can not try different throttle bodies….They can not try different intakes…… etc
I didn't take anymore weight out of my car from Columbus. I had E7's there, remember you guys knew that. Don't you remember someone checking the weights and seeing I was light? The 4v top half out flows everything that we can run period. I know we put on a better flowing head and E7. HA HA HA.


Where should we look for this new HP to make up a tenth…?

Do you really think that 100#s for the 4v and they will run away with the class?

I'm not going to find the little things for you. I changed a few things and picked up .15 and 2mph from Columbus. ;) I didn't just go test the same stuff and show up at B.G. I made the little changes.

No 100lbs wouldn't run away but it will make a huge difference. It's time for someone else to get a rule help. 50lbs is a nice start. Who knows the guy buying the engine maybe a better driver and go faster right away, or may have a better car. Who knows, we won't until Bradenton.

[Tommy@JPC]

Do you realize how ridicules that sounds after your BG performance with E7's?


Stop talking about stuff you don't know about. Did you not see the times that Jonathan and Carlos ran with E7's???? I would venture to say we have the best set on the planet. Whether you want to believe it or not you can't get our set. They're the special magic set. And they are LEGAL, remember we got torn down. I just wish you sent the cash so we could have gotten paid:D

[KenB]

Tried that too;)


Keep trying. ;)

[KenCook]

A 1 off set of e7's. Who would have thought.

[Tommy@JPC]

A 1 off set of e7's. Who would have thought.

Do you honestly think all heads are created equal when they aren't built off a CNC machine? Also I'm sure you can just throw in any old valve job and call it a day. You will not win this agrument. Remember we have 2 E7 cars. Hum one ran high 11.6's . You make the call.

[Mike Washington]

A 1 off set of e7's. Who would have thought.

Hey Ken,

I don't know what kind of problem you have with us, But....C'mon!

I really don't appreciate all the comments. I am not fond of being called a Cheater.

Tommy, Justin, Rich and Myself have worked long and hard with this pushrod deal. Rich went through MANY, MANY sets of heads to find the "perfect" castings. Tommy spent MANY, MANY runs down the ole' 1/4 mile to find the "perfect" driving technique. Justin and Myself have spent MANY, MANY years dynoing, racing testing, R&D to create the "perfect" Pushrod FS car.

As everyone knows a race car is made up of many pieces, not one is the difference between a .30 and a .70.

Next time your at a NMRA event racing in FS, put up some coin, tear us down and I'll let you see all the "mysterious" parts.

As for the rules:

2V: + 25lbs
E7: Status Quo
GT-40: - 125lbs
4V: NADA

The 4V asked and received there bonus before Chicago. The wanted the gear which they have said would enable themnto catch the all dreaded 2V Mod. Now there is a Pushrod :GASP: that can hang with a 2V Mod.
Now the 4V wants more.............:Pftttttttt:


Laters
Mike Washington

[KenCook]

Mike,
Do you only read what I post?
re-read what Tommy posted.
I re stated what he said.

Whether you want to believe it or not you can't get our set. They're the special magic set. And they are LEGAL

so which statement is it going to be?

The E7's are not the pushrods magic pill, I'm not going into any details on our program but if I was to build a pushrod for next year I would wait on the rules. Your better with a GT40 for sure.

[f/s 4valve]

Ha Ha Ha, The GT40 is pretty maxed out sorry, you do not know what your talking about. It's good for a possible low .40 pass with a 1.55 or better 60ft in 800-1800ft of air. Yes we've tested numerous cams. We have the Billy Bad Ass Shortblock and a badass set of heads. We can't play with port work or different intakes either.:D

There are parts on my car that I changed that anyone can change to find more power, should I reveal what I do to help everyone else out. It takes alittle extra thought,time and parts. There are things on that car that can be changed and it will go faster.


To catch up with the stock style 4v stuff. Pretty obvious I thought?


I didn't take anymore weight out of my car from Columbus. I had E7's there, remember you guys knew that. Don't you remember someone checking the weights and seeing I was light? The 4v top half out flows everything that we can run period. I know we put on a better flowing head and E7. HA HA HA.



I'm not going to find the little things for you. I changed a few things and picked up .15 and 2mph from Columbus. ;) I didn't just go test the same stuff and show up at B.G. I made the little changes.

No 100lbs wouldn't run away but it will make a huge difference. It's time for someone else to get a rule help. 50lbs is a nice start. Who knows the guy buying the engine maybe a better driver and go faster right away, or may have a better car. Who knows, we won't until Bradenton.
eric and i have been giving nothing but weight and we continued to go faster and with not 1 hp increase i say its time they leave me alone no weight no more teardowns lol.

[Tommy@JPC]

Mike,
Do you only read what I post?
re-read what Tommy posted.
I re stated what he said.



so which statement is it going to be?

Why are you acting so simple minded. We have a killer set of heads period. Like Mike said Rich spend a FEW YEARS getting them right. So yes we have a MAGIC Set. I saying your not going to bolt on a set and wow .30's here ya go. We tried to throw some together on Jo'Nathans car. How did that work out for us? About the same as throwing together a 2v was for the MRR/SCHMELL Team. Did either run .30'S.

Like Mike said put a FS Car together and come on out and compete again. Hell come on down to MIR This weekend. I'll lay the smack down on ya with a stock unported intake. We should be able to run in the .40's with that piece of crap.:eek:

[Tommy@JPC]

eric and i have been giving nothing but weight and we continued to go faster and with not 1 hp increase i say its time they leave me alone no weight no more teardowns lol.


That's it steve 300lbs on the 2v ported combo. hahahaha

I think it should be an uported head class anyways.

[Shawn Johnson]

Keep trying. ;)


We are in discussions to do just that....

Even if the 4vs get a 100#s neither Jeff nor I will be running one next season... I just believe that is a fair ajustment for them.

[headsup]

I'll be at MIR for you Tommy. I read the mag's and saw that hidden nitrous kit that JPC did so look out. :)

I got a trans!!!! yay now to put the car together ahhhhh!!!!

see ya this weekend

Greg

[f/s 4valve]

That's it steve 300lbs on the 2v ported combo. hahahaha

I think it should be an uported head class anyways.

were still going 20s

[Tommy@JPC]

were still going 20s

12.20's! HA! I know you guys have been pulling timing out of the 10 sec tune up. It's easy to make a 2v fast. We saw that just recently:rolleyes:

[Tommy@JPC]

I'll be at MIR for you Tommy. I read the mag's and saw that hidden nitrous kit that JPC did so look out. :)

I got a trans!!!! yay now to put the car together ahhhhh!!!!

see ya this weekend

Greg


I know Greg where do you think my 119mph came from!:eek: She's hidden good. HHAHAHA

[Ryan Hecox]

12.20's! HA! I know you guys have been pulling timing out of the 10 sec tune up. It's easy to make a 2v fast. We saw that just recently:rolleyes:


Really? Guess I will find out next year. Gonna be a good points chase next year if thats true :-)

[Tommy@JPC]

Really? Guess I will find out next year. Gonna be a good points chase next year if thats true :-)

You know that ain't true. There is nothing easy in headsup racing.:) I'm just trying to figure out if I can race somewhere next year:(

[Shawn Johnson]

Is there talk of the 2vs loosing the ported heads....?

It would not suprise me... 4v lost the heads we had......

[Ryan Hecox]

I think the 2v should lose the ported heads. It takes the cost factor through the roof on an entry level class.

[Ryan Hecox]

You know that ain't true. There is nothing easy in headsup racing.:) I'm just trying to figure out if I can race somewhere next year:(


Now you know Mr. Washington will be looking for a back to back championship from you.

Next year isnt that far away, better figure out something quickly.

[Tommy@JPC]

Is there talk of the 2vs loosing the ported heads....?

It would not suprise me... 4v lost the heads we had......

I agree with that, noone else can port. A 2v is better than an E7. So why not build that at the weight?

[Ryan Hecox]

I agree with that, noone else can port. A 2v is better than an E7. So why not build that at the weight?

Because an E7 gets 22 more cubic inches. So let the 2v run at 2900 and keep the E7 at 2950.

[Brandon Alsept]

How about this conceptLEAVE THE RULES ALONE;)

Would be the best thing for F/S stable rules, and the car counts will go up. The only combo that needs some help right now is the 3V in my opinion.

[Tommy@JPC]

How about this conceptLEAVE THE RULES ALONE;)

Would be the best thing for F/S stable rules, and the car counts will go up. The only combo that needs some help right now is the 3V in my opinion.

We're game for that, but honestly if that happens I would be amazed!

[Brandon Alsept]

Yeah we all know there will be some changes, but I would like to see the rules stay the same.

[Tommy@JPC]

Because an E7 gets 22 more cubic inches. So let the 2v run at 2900 and keep the E7 at 2950.

Yeah but the 2v would be able to get more RPM with their cams and compression make hp also remember. We can't touch their compression, cubic inch or not.

[Eric@JPC]

i say..

ALL Red, Blue, Black and Green cars get 200# added to base weight :D

Purple and White get 150 off




















:cool:

Also i dont know why you guys still talk about rules....

NMRA does not give a fyling F*ck what we think!?!?!?!?!?

it will be some off the wall rule changes.
Some thing like this

2v ported plus 150
e7 plus 150
4V same
GT40 - 25
2v uported same

[Tommy@JPC]

i say..

ALL Red, Blue, Black and Green cars get 200# added to base weight :D

Purple and White get 150 off




















:cool:

Also i dont know why you guys still talk about rules....

NMRA does not give a fyling F*ck what we think!?!?!?!?!?

it will be some off the wall rule changes.
Some thing like this

2v ported plus 150
e7 plus 150
4V same
GT40 - 25
2v uported same

We are painting the car white :D . Your probably right on the weights. It just gives everyone something to talk and bitch about during the offseason. Nothing else to do.

[KenB]

If they took away the ported heads, I would recommend to Steve we switch classes or quit. We haven't busted our asses over the last 2 years to get the rug pulled out. It would be one thing if the 2V was running away with the class like the 4v was. Last I checked we had a .03 margin between the top two cars. And last I checked there hasn't been another 2V able to run with us all year.

LEAVE THE RULES ALONE BESIDES WEIGHT ADJUSTMENTS!

[Chalie Sr.]

All Right,
Lets leave the rules alone! Just adjust the weights. I have a great rule idea ! Senior citizens Over the age of 50 get an additional 100 pound weight break! Our reactions are slower ! Lol.
Later,

[Dave Patti]

All Right,
Lets leave the rules alone! Just adjust the weights. I have a great rule idea ! Senior citizens Over the age of 50 get an additional 100 pound weight break! Our reactions are slower ! Lol.
Later,

Being 35, I would like a 50 lbs weight break as the arthritis in my knees, elbows and hands are kicking in early. In fact, I am having difficulty typing text and need binoculars to read it.....

"Elizabeth, Elizabeth... Oh, this is the big one! You hear that, Elizabeth? I'm comin' to join ya, honey!"

[ET/MPH]

Being 35, I would like a 50 lbs weight break as the arthritis in my knees, elbows and hands are kicking in early. In fact, I am having difficulty typing text and need binoculars to read it.....

"Elizabeth, Elizabeth... Oh, this is the big one! You hear that, Elizabeth? I'm comin' to join ya, honey!"

Now thats FUNNY! LMAO

[shanshine]

If they took away the ported heads, I would recommend to Steve we switch classes or quit. We haven't busted our asses over the last 2 years to get the rug pulled out. It would be one thing if the 2V was running away with the class like the 4v was. Last I checked we had a .03 margin between the top two cars. And last I checked there hasn't been another 2V able to run with us all year.

LEAVE THE RULES ALONE BESIDES WEIGHT ADJUSTMENTS!

**EDIT** Damn wife logged in on my laptop.... This is Ryan

Ken, you guys have busted your asses to get where you are. BUT, how many sets of heads or cams have you tried this year? Do you think you have the best port there is? What if someone else finds an engine builder that can port better than yours? I believe you guys will keep finding more. Right now, your a pure street car with a smaller cam minus a ported intake and smaller primary tubes on your headers. How can you view this as fair to the other factory stock racers? You havent even scratched the surface of the combos abilities and you're kicking their butts. Why not pull some weight and come on over to Pure Street?

[f/s 4valve]

**EDIT** Damn wife logged in on my laptop.... This is Ryan

Ken, you guys have busted your asses to get where you are. BUT, how many sets of heads or cams have you tried this year? Do you think you have the best port there is? What if someone else finds an engine builder that can port better than yours? I believe you guys will keep finding more. Right now, your a pure street car with a smaller cam minus a ported intake and smaller primary tubes on your headers. How can you view this as fair to the other factory stock racers? You havent even scratched the surface of the combos abilities and you're kicking their butts. Why not pull some weight and come on over to Pure Street?

a 2valve in p/s i like that. reminder 2 self call al

[KenB]

**EDIT** Damn wife logged in on my laptop.... This is Ryan

Ken, you guys have busted your asses to get where you are. BUT, how many sets of heads or cams have you tried this year? Do you think you have the best port there is? What if someone else finds an engine builder that can port better than yours? I believe you guys will keep finding more. Right now, your a pure street car with a smaller cam minus a ported intake and smaller primary tubes on your headers. How can you view this as fair to the other factory stock racers? You havent even scratched the surface of the combos abilities and you're kicking their butts. Why not pull some weight and come on over to Pure Street?


It's as fair as fair can get. You make it sound like we are the only one that is allowed to run a 2V. Or that the final MOV wasn't .005

The way I look at it, Tommy has alot left. He came out with the E7's at Columbus and went fast. Then at BG he was even quicker. So I don't want to hear the sob story. How many heads porting jobs/cams we have tried is really irrelavent. Since 2004 my car is the quickest 2VNA 4.6L out there. In 2003 my car had one of the first set of billet cams out of Comp. It was one of the quickest 2Vs since cams became available. So I'll throw the JPC standard out there. We have been doing this a long time!


And if you want to start talking about potential, then let's talk 60' times

Here are some averages to consider

60' average for the weekend
Steve 1.601
Tommy 1.652


Drop worst 60' of the weekend

Steve 1.593
Tommy 1.640

Race day average 60'

Tommy 1.648
Steve 1.596


Here are the 60's I have for both of you

Tommy
Elims
1.624
1.629
1.725
1.614
Qualifying
1.643
1.722
1.613


Steve
Elims
1.590
1.581
1.652
Qualifying
1.594
1.579
1.636
1.578



So if you look at the data, you were giving up about .05 IN THE FIRST 60' on average. Tell me there's not alot left in that car. And don't tell me you can't get it to 60'.




Carlos' 60' times with the E7 combo:

1.594
1.587
1.640
1.665
1.617

Average 1.62
Drop Worst 1.609

So he averaged .03 better than you and showed even greater potential on the first two passes. So don't tell me you can't get the car to 60' with the E7's

LEAVE THE RULES ALONE. I can't believe anyone would want a rule change after the final race we had. I'm for bringing the GT40 and 4V closer, but that's IT!



Ken

[Eric@JPC]

THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


in 08 everyone must run John Deere Tractor Tires!!!!!!!!


:eek:

tell steve to call me i need to borrow a set!!!!

:D

i say

-50# 4V
-100 GT-40
2V Same
E7 Same

Final Answer

[Tommy@JPC]

The only thing left to work on in our car is the 60ft. But It won't be any better than a 1.55. Which was run once in Reynolds. The big problem with a powerful pushrod is torque. My car has and had the problem of either give it clutch and let it bog to a 1.61 or if you let it go and hit the tire it blows them off and runs low 1.7's. Reason being a pushrod is making more torque. Now the 2v doesn't make as much torque so if it hits the tire it moves out. Like Ryan said, I believe the 2v has a lot more left to play with (ie. borderline P.S.) you can't denie it. Why do you feel its okay to run ported heads. Do like Rich did get 20 or 30 castings of stock 2v heads and find the best set and run at our weight. Seems fair to me. Port work is an advantage. I know you guys put a lot of effort in and it shows but as far as a new racer standpoint goes no porting would lessen the cost to run and maybe bring in new cars. Have you guys ever run an unported set at our weight? Maybe it's just as fast. And I don't mean just bolt on a set of random heads without finding a few different sets.

[Brandon Alsept]

-50# 4V
-100 GT-40
2V Same
E7 Same

Final Answer

3V -200#

Don't forget that so if anyone wants to give it a whirl;)

[Tommy@JPC]

THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


in 08 everyone must run John Deere Tractor Tires!!!!!!!!


:eek:

tell steve to call me i need to borrow a set!!!!

:D

i say

-50# 4V
-100 GT-40
2V Same
E7 Same

Final Answer

The GT40 really needs more to run with the big dogs. 175lbs

[Eric@JPC]

3V -200#

Don't forget that so if anyone wants to give it a whirl;)

Pure Street
4V +125


:eek:

Im not sure if i agree with the -200 for 3V

Justin's car with a BONE STOCK motor with bolt-ons Got into the 11's @
3400 and some change. all the way back in 2005 lol. But seriously that aftermarket has grown for the 3v, and we all know they have abilty to run a number. I would be willing to give them mabey 100# but thats it. I know for a fact a built 3V from Al, Rich, or biscoft could seriously do some damage! its just a matter of the right person getting involved in one.


I seriously think 200 is a bit much

[Brandon Alsept]

Pure Street
4V +125


:eek:



Hey this is F/S forum buddy no need for name callin LOL.


I think the 200 would be a big # but a good starting point. Very easy to add weight to reel them back in. Justin went what a 11.9* with slicks correct in very very good air if I recall. I would say a 3V could make awesome power no doubt about that but give the guys a chance to figure stuff out first. Maybe 100 would be better to start but it needs something;)

[Eric@JPC]

All i have to say is.... a 3V @ 3200 in my car or a coupe... Watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That bitch would be sick. Thats what i would build

[Ryan Hecox]

All i have to say is.... a 3V @ 3200 in my car or a coupe... Watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That bitch would be sick. Thats what i would build

Give the 3v 3200 pounds and I pretty sure there will be one sitting in the lanes at that weight.

Ken, I am in no way attacking you for your efforts. They are proven. BUT, those who work hardest get punished the most. I think an unported 2v can run at the same weight as a E7. Currently the 2v is 25 pounds heavier than the E7. I am simply trying to keep the entry level cost down. Porting definately isnt entry level. How many entry level racers have access to a good head porting program or the money to fund it?

[Eric@JPC]

well thats why we have weight brakes...

if there is a problem on how the ported 2v runs compared to the unported, then we need to adjust base weight of the uported 2v lower and the penlty of a poreted heads higher.

IE

Unported weight 2850
Ported Head adder +275

so the ported head weight will be 3125#

I think thats soild :D

[Tommy@JPC]

well thats why we have weight brakes...

if there is a problem on how the ported 2v runs compared to the unported, then we need to adjust base weight of the uported 2v lower and the penlty of a poreted heads higher.

IE

Unported weight 2850
Ported Head adder +275

so the ported head weight will be 3125#

I think thats soild :D

That's the same weight they are at now. How about 2950lb unported ( just like an E7 and the rules already are and add 275lb for porting :D There's more left. Maybe a fresh set of eyes. Poke Poke. I'm just teasing guys, I luv ya :p

[Biff]

All you guys keep talking about keeping this cost effective for "Entry Level Racers", ***NEWSFLASH*** taking ported heads away takes off about 2% of the cost it takes to build a competitive F/S car. UNLESS you are already/have been buying parts to try to put something together, then the money you already spent is wasted, thus making it even harder. So I guess i need to have 3 different sets of heads ready to go and wait for all the complaining to end and the rules to come out before I can put a motor together. I should probably just save a pile of money up and buy all my parts 2 weeks before Bradenton. I'm gettin ****ing tired of all the bullshit rules drama and I don't even have my stuff together yet. you want new racers for this "entry level class"?? leave the damn rules alone for more than 2 races so guys can actually build a combo and not worry about it being disallowed all of the sudden.

[Tommy@JPC]

All you guys keep talking about keeping this cost effective for "Entry Level Racers", ***NEWSFLASH*** taking ported heads away takes off about 2% of the cost it takes to build a competitive F/S car. UNLESS you are already/have been buying parts to try to put something together, then the money you already spent is wasted, thus making it even harder. So I guess i need to have 3 different sets of heads ready to go and wait for all the complaining to end and the rules to come out before I can put a motor together. I should probably just save a pile of money up and buy all my parts 2 weeks before Bradenton. I'm gettin ****ing tired of all the bullshit rules drama and I don't even have my stuff together yet. you want new racers for this "entry level class"?? leave the damn rules alone for more than 2 races so guys can actually build a combo and not worry about it being disallowed all of the sudden.

Easy answer. Most of us really don't want any changes. But News Flash, if the NMRA doesn't make a single change in the rules we all would be beyond AMAZED!!!!!

[Ryan Hecox]

All you guys keep talking about keeping this cost effective for "Entry Level Racers", ***NEWSFLASH*** taking ported heads away takes off about 2% of the cost it takes to build a competitive F/S car. UNLESS you are already/have been buying parts to try to put something together, then the money you already spent is wasted, thus making it even harder. So I guess i need to have 3 different sets of heads ready to go and wait for all the complaining to end and the rules to come out before I can put a motor together. I should probably just save a pile of money up and buy all my parts 2 weeks before Bradenton. I'm gettin ****ing tired of all the bullshit rules drama and I don't even have my stuff together yet. you want new racers for this "entry level class"?? leave the damn rules alone for more than 2 races so guys can actually build a combo and not worry about it being disallowed all of the sudden.


Personally I dont care about ported heads. My combo is coming out with or without them. But for you to think ported heads are 2% of the program tells me you have alot left in the bag. I know how many sets of heads I have tried in Pure Street and Rich had been in that class for years. We are constantly trying new port designs. Some definately work, others definately dont. The ones that dont are still a cost factor.

So, if it cost me 15k to build a car, my heads are only worth 300.00. Even one unported head has more cost in it than that.

Just being realistic with costs.

I'm all for adjusting weight and keeping the current rules because I can keep up with the costs. But think about the guy that wants to race on a budget. How can he compete with a guy running ported heads that has the ability to change the way air enters his combustion chamber drastically.

[tank6675]

i say F all the rule changes just let us run slicks and the nmra can screw around with the weight to keep it an equal field....

[Brandon Alsept]

I think what Matt was meaning is that if you are building a car to compete in the class the amount of money to have the heads ported is small in comparrison to everything else. Just meaning one set here not trying every porter out there, but just one set to get them to the race and to race. Is there power left in the ported 2V combo? Sure there is, there is power to be found in every combo in the NMRA.

To get more cars in the class it will take one thing STABLE rules. Which I think they are starting to see based on a few classes such as P/S and Renegade, even R/S was starting to grow. With minor adjustments in weight you will keep racers there and more coming in. Taking parts away will run people off fast.

[Eric@JPC]

Personally I dont care about ported heads. My combo is coming out with or without them. But for you to think ported heads are 2% of the program tells me you have alot left in the bag. I know how many sets of heads I have tried in Pure Street and Rich had been in that class for years. We are constantly trying new port designs. Some definately work, others definately dont. The ones that dont are still a cost factor.

So, if it cost me 15k to build a car, my heads are only worth 300.00. Even one unported head has more cost in it than that.

Just being realistic with costs.

I'm all for adjusting weight and keeping the current rules because I can keep up with the costs. But think about the guy that wants to race on a budget. How can he compete with a guy running ported heads that has the ability to change the way air enters his combustion chamber drastically.

What i think Biff is trying to get at, is that the cost of building the car for the 1st time. 2 grand(give or take your hook up) is a drop in the bucket compared to. Buying a roll cage, big money trans and clutch, a short block ect....

is there alot of money to be spent on heads?, YES. sure we can get heads from the 3 best engine builders known. and obiviously none will be created = but...... what sucks for a guy like Biff is.... trying to build the whole package the 1st time. then have to sell his heads becasue they are now illeagal before his 1st time out with the car...

Bottom line is yes a ported head will be better, who knows if you will ever have the "combo maxed out" it will be harder for a ported head to find a limit, but thats why they should be 200# heavier.

i vote to keep the ported heads, becasue it bull shit to just get rid of them. Besides.... no one here asked for ported heads they were just handed out!!! cant get rid of them after 2 years thats BS........ what im saying is its hard for some one to bite the bullet of throwing everything you learned in the trash casue the ported head was 2 fast

[Eric@JPC]

me and brandon think alike... :D

[Ryan Hecox]

Im not disagreeing with anyones thought process.
I firmly believe stable rules will bring the masses. But, I believe the 2v still has alot left in it. How much is unknown because of all of the porting options they have that no other head has. How can you deem that as a fair rule?
Leave the heads, but make them weigh 3250.:D

[Teddy]

[QUOTE=Ryan Hecox;15276] My combo is coming out with or without them. QUOTE]
You switching classes again, Ryan??

[Ryan Hecox]

[QUOTE=Ryan Hecox;15276] My combo is coming out with or without them. QUOTE]
You switching classes again, Ryan??

No, just throwing another car out there into the mix. I wouldnt leave you all alone in Pure Street fighting against the Modulars... I'll still be there fighting the good fight!

I have voices in my head telling me to use all my parts in my garage to build another FS car. I am sure the driver/co-owner of the car will be able to handle the majority on his own allowing me to concentrate on my PS car. That is if Elmer would stop knockin him out of trees.

[MP John]

cant get rid of them after 2 years


NMRA took away the 42 cc combustion chamber 4v heads. They were given a one year notice and a 3.90 rear gear. Anything is possible.

[KenB]

It get's funnier and funnier. lol


Ported heads cost to much for entry level guys but buy 20 sets of E7's to find the right set is not. BFS

BIzzaro Factory Stock


If you don't like the rules, change your combo!!!!!!!!


Oh, and Tommy you ruined any arguement you made about things being maxed out. There is ALOT left in your combo. There haven't been years of testing you stand behind on stock E7/cammed cars in FS trim. So you have a few years before you can you can pull out that "never true" statement to hide behind.


And if you think ported heads make the class expensive, what about the cams? Let's get rid of them. Oh, and those race trannies we all run now are getting pricey, let's get rid of them also. Hell, how about you have to run a true untouched factory engine? That would make it cheaper. :rolleyes:

[KenB]

NMRA took away the 42 cc combustion chamber 4v heads. They were given a one year notice and a 3.90 rear gear. Anything is possible.
That's because they were running away from ALL other combos. That's not the case this year. Some simple weight adjustments and everyone should be happy. Or we can just go ahead, make some major changes, screw it all up and wait another whole year to get some sort of parity.

[Jonathan Paulk]

how about you have to run a true untouched factory engine? That would make it cheaper. :rolleyes:

I think that would be a good idea, crate motors. You call Thom and tell him you want to race FS, and what combo. Then you send the money to Thom and he sends you a sealed crate motor; intake to oilpan; that is straight from Ford. NOW THAT IS FACTORY STOCK!!!

BTW, you can get E7s for $50 or less, some people give them away...

[Rey]

Hi Tommy I know you don't know who I am but I ran the first purpose built 2v in the class in 2004. At the end of that year I got with Thom Bates through phone calls and emails and sent in a very detailed proposal for rules change which is what you have today for the 2v. I did not get to race again after 2004. Iill tell you this. The 2v combo we had was tested quite a bit for an entire season. When it was all said and done we ran a 12.04 @ 112 as the best pass. That was a 1.61 60 ft. The car made several 11.90 passes durring testing with similar 60 ft times. This was done with factory heads and cams. The heads were done to the letter of the rules book. We went through quite a number of heads and cams to find the right ones. Granted the car could have gone faster with another year of testing. But it ould not have gained6-7 tenths to be where it is with the current rules.Some of the guys that race factory stock today were there to see the pain in trying to get that car to be competetive with those rules. I don't think the group that is racing now is too far apart in E.T. Weight should be the only change next year. In any case I will be there next year if I can Find someone to help build my car:D


The only thing left to work on in our car is the 60ft. But It won't be any better than a 1.55. Which was run once in Reynolds. The big problem with a powerful pushrod is torque. My car has and had the problem of either give it clutch and let it bog to a 1.61 or if you let it go and hit the tire it blows them off and runs low 1.7's. Reason being a pushrod is making more torque. Now the 2v doesn't make as much torque so if it hits the tire it moves out. Like Ryan said, I believe the 2v has a lot more left to play with (ie. borderline P.S.) you can't denie it. Why do you feel its okay to run ported heads. Do like Rich did get 20 or 30 castings of stock 2v heads and find the best set and run at our weight. Seems fair to me. Port work is an advantage. I know you guys put a lot of effort in and it shows but as far as a new racer standpoint goes no porting would lessen the cost to run and maybe bring in new cars. Have you guys ever run an unported set at our weight? Maybe it's just as fast. And I don't mean just bolt on a set of random heads without finding a few different sets.

[Rey]

no one here asked for ported heads they were just handed out!!!
No I asked for them at the end of 2004 and again in 2005........and cams and longtubes......

[Rey]

Here is the link for the thread on my rules change

http://www.stangcrazy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=884#post884

That whole thread is very good. It is a mirror of what is going on now.......

[Tommy@JPC]

It get's funnier and funnier. lol


Ported heads cost to much for entry level guys but buy 20 sets of E7's to find the right set is not. BFS

BIzzaro Factory Stock I have no idea how much if any Rich spent back in the day to find these heads. But like John said they can be free and cheap.


If you don't like the rules, change your combo!!!!!!!! Come on Ken your not really getting excited about this thread are you, because it's really a bunch of useless banter for fun. They (nmra tech) doesn't care what we think. The ported heads aren't going away. They probably just add weight to both of our combos.


Oh, and Tommy you ruined any arguement you made about things being maxed out. There is ALOT left in your combo. There haven't been years of testing you stand behind on stock E7/cammed cars in FS trim. So you have a few years before you can you can pull out that "never true" statement to hide behind. The engine is maxing right now. We may find a hundreth somewhere but that's it. We can't change our port design. The car has alittle left in the chassis. I never said it didn't.

And if you think ported heads make the class expensive, what about the cams? Let's get rid of them. Oh, and those race trannies we all run now are getting pricey, let's get rid of them also. Hell, how about you have to run a true untouched factory engine? That would make it cheaper. :rolleyes:
Nobody wants to go super slow.

[Tommy@JPC]

Hi Tommy I know you don't know who I am but I ran the first purpose built 2v in the class in 2004. At the end of that year I got with Thom Bates through phone calls and emails and sent in a very detailed proposal for rules change which is what you have today for the 2v. I did not get to race again after 2004. Iill tell you this. The 2v combo we had was tested quite a bit for an entire season. When it was all said and done we ran a 12.04 @ 112 as the best pass. That was a 1.61 60 ft. The car made several 11.90 passes durring testing with similar 60 ft times. This was done with factory heads and cams. The heads were done to the letter of the rules book. We went through quite a number of heads and cams to find the right ones. Granted the car could have gone faster with another year of testing. But it ould not have gained6-7 tenths to be where it is with the current rules.Some of the guys that race factory stock today were there to see the pain in trying to get that car to be competetive with those rules. I don't think the group that is racing now is too far apart in E.T. Weight should be the only change next year. In any case I will be there next year if I can Find someone to help build my car:D

Nice to meet you. A lot of technology has come about since 04. I'm sure there were somethings left on the table. I'm sure you had a badass ride but every year things advance. How do you think any class get quicker and faster. Like Pro Stock?

[Rey]

Nice to meet you. A lot of technology has come about since 04. I'm sure there were somethings left on the table. I'm sure you had a badass ride but every year things advance. How do you think any class get quicker and faster. Like Pro Stock?


Not disagreeing one bit. But for the argument that ported heads should not be allowed is now outdated. This being the reason. Again keep in mind the name factory stock should be used very loosely. Your telling me that it should be ok to build one serious badass short block and other purpose built complimentary parts on a factory stock car but not ported heads on a car that really does need it to run with other combos that are not ported. When there are so many differences in combo's (4v,2v.pr,3v) there have to be significant changes in either weight or part and or parts modification allowances. If anything maybe the NMRA should leave the current rules alone aside for some minor weight adjustments and make a separate rule allowance for unported 2v with a dramatic weight drop to see if this is the case. Maybe this will allow more cars to come in without having to drop the big $
on port jobs. Of course those that want to be competitive in that, will have to test many castings which can be very costly as well.

Pro Stock has been around for decades.................. A lot of time invested....................

Point is ,it is the same complaint every year. "Your combo is faster than mine". Everyone tells the other guy test more. That's nice and all but hell if the rules don't get left alone nobody will ever know what a certain combo could have done. So we will just have to wait for the rules to come out the first week of March!!!!!!!!

[MP John]

A Some simple weight adjustments and everyone should be happy.
B Or we can just go ahead, make some major changes.

I'm not a betting man but B will probably be the winner.

[KenB]

I have no idea how much if any Rich spent back in the day to find these heads. But like John said they can be free and cheap.

Come on Ken your not really getting excited about this thread are you, because it's really a bunch of useless banter for fun. They (nmra tech) doesn't care what we think. The ported heads aren't going away. They probably just add weight to both of our combos.

The engine is maxing right now. We may find a hundreth somewhere but that's it. We can't change our port design. The car has alittle left in the chassis. I never said it didn't.

Nobody wants to go super slow.

I am getting somewhat excited about it. I know it doesn't necessarily impact the NMRAs decision on rules. But you do have to realize that many people read this that don't post. And when posts are made that aren't factual or are fuzzy at best, I get excited about it. Because if people read enough BS, they start to believe it. So if unfounded requests for rule changes are posted, I'm going to give my take on it. I'd rather not have to but someone has to babysit you guys! :p

[Chalie Sr.]

Hi Guys,
I would much rather have A. But NMRA has sponsors so I think John is right.
The sponsors need us to buy more parts , so more changes will sell parts!
Damm Mo Money Mo Money!!! Well I have news! Tank's car will be White!
The Lentech is going back to Canada for the Mod Motor bellhousing!
Now for the rules to come out! Ported or not ported that is the question!
Fox body wth a aod and a 2 valve . The car has to get in race pages!!!
Later,

[Ryan Hecox]

Not disagreeing one bit. But for the argument that ported heads should not be allowed is now outdated. This being the reason. Again keep in mind the name factory stock should be used very loosely. Your telling me that it should be ok to build one serious badass short block and other purpose built complimentary parts on a factory stock car but not ported heads on a car that really does need it to run with other combos that are not ported. When there are so many differences in combo's (4v,2v.pr,3v) there have to be significant changes in either weight or part and or parts modification allowances. If anything maybe the NMRA should leave the current rules alone aside for some minor weight adjustments and make a separate rule allowance for unported 2v with a dramatic weight drop to see if this is the case. Maybe this will allow more cars to come in without having to drop the big $
on port jobs. Of course those that want to be competitive in that, will have to test many castings which can be very costly as well.

Pro Stock has been around for decades.................. A lot of time invested....................

Point is ,it is the same complaint every year. "Your combo is faster than mine". Everyone tells the other guy test more. That's nice and all but hell if the rules don't get left alone nobody will ever know what a certain combo could have done. So we will just have to wait for the rules to come out the first week of March!!!!!!!!


So Rey, how fast do you think an unported 2v headed car will go with long tubes and cams? Please tell me what I have to look forward to next season.

[Rey]

So Rey, how fast do you think an unported 2v headed car will go with long tubes and cams? Please tell me what I have to look forward to next season.

lol

It could run a pretty good number with some weight break.
At the current weight .50's

[Ryan Hecox]

lol

It could run a pretty good number with some weight break.
At the current weight .50's



.50's is what the class is aimed at. Your response enforces my statement even more of removing ported heads.

My belief is that an unported head can run with the E7 and the GT40 needs to lose 100 pounds. Far to many variables with porting. Even Farmer told me the first time the valve covers were off the engine since last year during the tear down in Bowling Green was in Columbus this year when you had to pop a head off for tech.

Ken, do you feel my posts are not factual or that they are fuzzy?

[Rey]

In this form, how long has the E7 been running. Your telling me that this combo does not have more in it as does the ported 2v. As far as I know Tommy has only run this combo in 2 events. And for him to make the leaps and bounds as fast as he did , how could you justify that this combo has hit a wall.Sure we can play around with the weight and even the scales, but again why are we having to penalize the fast guys in attempts to slow them down. You are not gonna run a .30 with unported heads on a 2v in Current FS trim.

[Ryan Hecox]

In this form, how long has the E7 been running. Your telling me that this combo does not have more in it as does the ported 2v. As far as I know Tommy has only run this combo in 2 events. And for him to make the leaps and bounds as fast as he did , how could you justify that this combo has hit a wall.Sure we can play around with the weight and even the scales, but again why are we having to penalize the fast guys in attempts to slow them down. You are not gonna run a .30 with unported heads on a 2v in Current FS trim.


You act as though Tommy just found some new set of E7's laying on the side of the street and decided to slap them on. These heads came from Rich Groh, who won a Championship with them and has been building Championship FS and PS engines for years. Justin Burcham, who Tommy works with every day, also won a FS Championship as well as Mike Washington who Tommy Drives for. Who gave you your support again? What was their backround with pushrods and Championships? Do you think this team of people just fell out of a tree with a set of E7's? Did the E7's magically get some hidden RPM unleashed no one had ever seen before or isnt it still done at 5700rpm.

I agree there is alittle left in the E7. But nothing like having the ability to completely change the way air enters a combustion chamber. I mean the 2v has been in the class all this time and has to be maxed out. There have been how many different 2v's in the last 3 years? Steve Gifford, Eric Holliday, Rey Rivera, Brian Marr. I'm so sure all the options have been exhausted.

[Rey]

You act as though Tommy just found some new set of E7's laying on the side of the street and decided to slap them on. These heads came from Rich Groh, who won a Championship with them and has been building Championship FS and PS engines for years. Justin Burcham, who Tommy works with every day, also won a FS Championship as well as Mike Washington who Tommy Drives for. Who gave you your support again? What was their backround with pushrods and Championships? Do you think this team of people just fell out of a tree with a set of E7's? Did the E7's magically get some hidden RPM unleashed no one had ever seen before or isnt it still done at 5700rpm.

I agree there is alittle left in the E7. But nothing like having the ability to completely change the way air enters a combustion chamber. I mean the 2v has been in the class all this time and has to be maxed out. There have been how many different 2v's in the last 3 years? Steve Gifford, Eric Holliday, Rey Rivera, Brian Marr. I'm so sure all the options have been exhausted.

It's not about my past combo. All i did was raise some eyebros. It's about what is happening now. I realize that the heads that Tommy used were not just slapped on. But my point is, why is it that the fast guy always gets penalized. Sure there is a lot left in the "ported" 2v.

But the same was said about the 4v when Jeff started running the Mach 1.It is an unknown variable but so is every combo out there at some point. Yes the 2v ent fast with ported heads, but so did the E7 combo. You said the target E.T. is around .50 So hat does that mean you want to slow down the E7 as well???????

[KenB]

.50's is what the class is aimed at. Your response enforces my statement even more of removing ported heads.

My belief is that an unported head can run with the E7 and the GT40 needs to lose 100 pounds. Far to many variables with porting. Even Farmer told me the first time the valve covers were off the engine since last year during the tear down in Bowling Green was in Columbus this year when you had to pop a head off for tech.

Ken, do you feel my posts are not factual or that they are fuzzy?

I feel they are fuzzy. In one breath you are saying that the unported head can run with the E7 while at the same time we are barely keeping up with the E7 with a ported head. So I can't really make much sense of that.


I don't care where the E7's came from. I don't doubt that those are some sweet heads but let's take a look at the facts.

Carlos (my man) slapped E7s on a shortblock he had laying around with a stock cam. When he got to the track I threw a chip in it guessing on the tuneup. Went 12.2 Made one adjustment to the chip and went 11.7's Decided to leave it at that.

So on a guess tune without many adjustments even guessing/playing and a stock cam he went 11.7's. Granted, he had the car leaving very well, but I'm sure there's a ton left in that with the right cam, some time in the shortblock and a proper tune to get pretty close to Tommy. Can't really say from experience but common sense leads you that way. So I would really quit trying to play down the E7 potential, I don't think anyone is buying it.

Either way, we can only judge by performance and Tommy and Steve's were about as close as they get. So you have to treat the current E7/2V rules as equal.

[Justin Burcham]

Late into this one, just started reading. Hi guys!:D

Congrats Steve on BG!!! Dat was some good damn racin!!!

Sorry Jeff that you had to go out like that, you did good Jeff, I was really pullin for ya for the Championship, you've paid your dues and I wouldn't have mind seeing you get it. The gear change still bugged me though, it just felt like a cheap shot, not by you, but the NMRA, at that point in the season, we were very close all around. If we stuck w/GT-40's you/Steve would be on that podium instead of Tommy.

For next season? We'll just do what we always do wait for the NMRA to make their decision. Good/bad/indifferent it's their sandbox.

My vote, any combo that allows ported heads and the other kids don't get em, well that's our combo. Whether it's Tommy, Eric, Wayne or whoever pilots the JPC car, ported 2V are the way to go. Riddle me this, GOD's CNC service does the baddest whamma jamma head program like Whoa and someone picks up 20rwhp, are they gonna show their hand or pull a Tim Matherly? I'm sure I'll catch heat for that one, but seasons over and the cat ran past my pits after it jumped outta the bag on the 9.73@3000+ft run. No more seeeeeeecrets!!!! Opps, wrong thread…Just as much ET as you need, anyone would do it if the opportunity presented it self, say no and your nose will go through your computer monitor before you hit enter!!!!

More left in the E7 combo? ET yes, power uhhhhh maybe a couple, we’ll try some cams, but it will be the same result as the GT-40’s IMHO, zilch. I’d personally rather see the ported 2V’s go away, it just leaves too much to the imagination, and a kickass valve job does not. They should have never been allowed in, the same could be argued for many things now allowed in F/S, but ported heads? That’s a biggie. Too close to P/S. It got the 2v’s on the map and in competition, now it may be time to take a step back or at least in 2009, so no teams $$ spent will go to waste, not like you have to melt them and send them to the scrap yard either guys, so don’t make that big a deal over $$wasted, please..2 or 3 sets of heads for R&D over a couple years are a drop in the bucket in the form of heads up racing, maybe a little more than 2% though.:) We have all wasted much more $$ then porting a set of 2V heads….I have a couple customers interested if things don’t go your way.

Anyway my 2 cents, we’ll see what happens, goodnight.:)

[Jonathan Paulk]

You are not gonna run a .30 with unported heads on a 2v in Current FS trim.


That's what we thought about the E7 combo......

[Rey]

That's what we thought about the E7 combo......

Well according to Tommy these are special "magic bean" heads.....lol

[jclarkg]

I like that "Stock" theme that Factory Stock used to be!!!! Hey Ken don't feel to bad if the ported 2v heads get axed because I remeber when the stock cam 5 liter cars got their dedicated stock cam motors got axed or should I say swiped by the pen. Ya'll take it easy.

Jamie R.
'01 Silver Cobra on the Cover of MM&FF's August '07 Issue
'93 Vortech'ed Lightning
'87 GT NMRA F/S 6500 for sale car or motor

[Dave Patti]

As this is an entry-level class, these rules that everyone is going round n round about only really impact cars going .50's consistently or faster, which is a group of 4 cars. The remaining cars are 60's and even slower depending on the day. One may think an entry-level class would result in a competitive field as compared to two 30's cars, one 40's car, one 50's car and 12 cars running in the 60's and higher (as an example).

As previously stated and referenced by others, NMRA either needs to level the playing field or create a new entry level class as the majority of the car owners in this class appear to be limited in time, resources and finances to complete with these 4 main cars. An appealing characteristic of an entry level class is we should not have to blow big $$$$ testing twenty heads, 15 cams, 4 gears, etc. to be competitive.

I tip my hat to guys like Tommy, Steve, Jeff as countless hours, energy and time have been put into their programs, but you guys are essentially racing one another. You should not be punished for this, but on the flip side racing you is like the New England Patriots taking on the U of I Illini. The majority can hang for the first quarter, but after that, it is going to be a good old fashion ass whipping.

A new entry level class and loosen the reigns a little more on Factory Stock, or slow down F/S, which I am not sure people really want...

[Biff]

Justin,
I respect just about everything in your post, and i understand the guys that have been doing this since the beginning deserve to be the benchmark as far as rules go. However, the statement about scrapping the ported heads and it not being money wasted is not entirely accurate, while in the grand scheme of trying to find more power after you have established a baseline and tried a few options, i will agree, its merely a drop in the bucket, but for the guys building the ENTIRE car for the first pass down the track (this would be me, Hecox, and maybe Benji if the gators didn't get him in the swamps lol, and possibly a few others) getting rid of ported heads would be a kick in the pants at this stage. while i am aware the rules haven't been posted for 08, one who doesn't have a giant piggy bank and has got to start early when it comes to dropping some coin on engines, trannys, fuel systems, cages, suspension, ignition, etc etc, this is going to be a huge step backwards until the heads can be sold at half the cost of the effort that was put into them. One can only go off of the current rules in hopes that no drastic changes will be made in the off season rendering your time, money, and parts illegal.

I don't plan on coming into next year racing for a top 10 jacket, I plan to win, just like everyone else who shows up 1000 miles from home to race, which is why i have spent as much time as i have researching what i need to buy to win, (hendering the process of putting together a winning car), instead of finding junk lying around the shop just to get a car together. I looked at the "entry level" HEADS UP class rules and started there, with what i felt i could build to be the best combo. Now getting rid of the ported heads would not only mean i would have to basically start from scratch as far as engine combos go (NO ONE runs unported heads, therefore no bench mark), i would also have to bank on the fact that i could get rid of already finished parts, and find a new set and have everything done again, praying that there is SO much left in a 2V, that it could compete (from scratch) with heads/combos that have been around since the beginning of time and were chosen as the best set out of 30ish. doesn't seem so appealing anymore :eek: We are trying to increase car counts aren't we? Stabile rules= more cars. lead is easier to come by than heads.

Not meant to be argumentative, but a reiteration of what Eric and Brandon have already interpreted my first post as, which was spot-on guys ;)
-Biff

[Biff]

As previously stated and referenced by others, NMRA either needs to level the playing field or create a new entry level class as the majority of the car owners in this class appear to be limited in time, resources and finances to complete with these 4 main cars. An appealing characteristic of an entry level class is we should not have to blow big $$$$ testing twenty heads, 15 cams, 4 gears, etc. to be competitive.


Entry Level is the worst description EVER for a heads up racing class. Insert "slowest" for entry level. Heads Up means competitive, and competition breeds imagination, and i think we are all here for that, and if we can't use our imagination, then maybe open comp style classes should be a realistic choice. Again not to piss anyone off, but i don't want any races handed to me, and i don't expect any combos to be presented a championship on a silver platter, i am all for fair rules between the combos, but some benchmarks may not necessarily be, The Bench.


I forgot what i started out to say so i'll add it here, as far as we know, all combos run this year were deemed legal, so there is no reason why any E7 car can't go as quick as Tommy, any ported 2V should be able to go as quick as Steve, any GT-40 head as quick as Tommy/Jonathon, and any 4V as quick as Jeff, for those who aren't in the game, work harder. think outside the box, not behind a keyboard.

[5.0pilot]

Rey. In the year(s) you were racing what were the E7 combinations running?

[Dave Patti]

Entry Level is the worst description EVER for a heads up racing class. Insert "slowest" for entry level. Heads Up means competitive, and competition breeds imagination, and i think we are all here for that, and if we can't use our imagination, then maybe open comp style classes should be a realistic choice. Again not to piss anyone off, but i don't want any races handed to me, and i don't expect any combos to be presented a championship on a silver platter, i am all for fair rules between the combos, but some benchmarks may not necessarily be, The Bench.


I forgot what i started out to say so i'll add it here, as far as we know, all combos run this year were deemed legal, so there is no reason why any E7 car can't go as quick as Tommy, any ported 2V should be able to go as quick as Steve, any GT-40 head as quick as Tommy/Jonathon, and any 4V as quick as Jeff, for those who aren't in the game, work harder. think outside the box, not behind a keyboard.

We have not heard one person ask or mention being handed a silver platter, nor is anyone lacking a work ethic. Even making reference to that line of thought is rather ridiculous.

Everyone does what they can with their limited funds, resources and time.

[Biff]

We have not heard one person ask or mention being handed a silver platter, nor is anyone lacking a work ethic. Even making reference to that line of thought is rather ridiculous.

Everyone does what they can with their limited funds, resources and time.

You took that wrong, I am more or less arguing for a particular combination, and in an attempt to justify the facts that I presented, i am also acknowledging the fact that NO one should be handed wins via rules, and stating that steve may not be the peak of the 2V combo as per written rules,and there may need to be adjustments to that combo, as well as the pushrods and tommy, 4Vs and jeff, etc. I didn't once say that i thought anyone was handed anything, and would like to see it kept that way. sorry for the confusion. :o

[Tommy@JPC]

Well according to Tommy these are special "magic bean" heads.....lol

Say what you want, the E7's we haved are what you would call Billy Bad Ass. Laugh all you want, it's been proven.

[Tommy@JPC]

I feel they are fuzzy. In one breath you are saying that the unported head can run with the E7 while at the same time we are barely keeping up with the E7 with a ported head. So I can't really make much sense of that. Come on. That's fuzzy. Barely keeping up? Do some more head work and it would get real ugly. Like Steve said the heads haven't been off the car. There's a lot left.


I don't care where the E7's came from. I don't doubt that those are some sweet heads but let's take a look at the facts.

Carlos (my man) slapped E7s on a shortblock he had laying around with a stock cam. When he got to the track I threw a chip in it guessing on the tuneup. Went 12.2 Made one adjustment to the chip and went 11.7's Decided to leave it at that. Not so much, we put a set on Smokey(my record setting GT40 shortblock from the first half of the season) and had another set done and that was sitting in Jo'nathan's car at B.G. Solid 11.6's. May have hit a high .50 with a better 60ft.


So on a guess tune without many adjustments even guessing/playing and a stock cam he went 11.7's. Granted, he had the car leaving very well, but I'm sure there's a ton left in that with the right cam, some time in the shortblock and a proper tune to get pretty close to Tommy. Can't really say from experience but common sense leads you that way. So I would really quit trying to play down the E7 potential, I don't think anyone is buying it. Not trying to play down the E7's on my car, but just because you want to overate it, that's up to you.

Either way, we can only judge by performance and Tommy and Steve's were about as close as they get. So you have to treat the current E7/2V rules as equal. The only reason we were close to you guys at B.G. is because noone thought our car would go that fast coming in. You guys probably felt you had everyone covered. It was kind of cool seeing a pushrod run 119+ eh? If we ran that at Atco I think you guys would have stepped up your program and said maybe we should put some more in her.

[Tommy@JPC]

Justin,
I respect just about everything in your post, and i understand the guys that have been doing this since the beginning deserve to be the benchmark as far as rules go. However, the statement about scrapping the ported heads and it not being money wasted is not entirely accurate, while in the grand scheme of trying to find more power after you have established a baseline and tried a few options, i will agree, its merely a drop in the bucket, but for the guys building the ENTIRE car for the first pass down the track (this would be me, Hecox, and maybe Benji if the gators didn't get him in the swamps lol, and possibly a few others) getting rid of ported heads would be a kick in the pants at this stage. while i am aware the rules haven't been posted for 08, one who doesn't have a giant piggy bank and has got to start early when it comes to dropping some coin on engines, trannys, fuel systems, cages, suspension, ignition, etc etc, this is going to be a huge step backwards until the heads can be sold at half the cost of the effort that was put into them. One can only go off of the current rules in hopes that no drastic changes will be made in the off season rendering your time, money, and parts illegal.

I don't plan on coming into next year racing for a top 10 jacket, I plan to win, just like everyone else who shows up 1000 miles from home to race, which is why i have spent as much time as i have researching what i need to buy to win, (hendering the process of putting together a winning car), instead of finding junk lying around the shop just to get a car together. I looked at the "entry level" HEADS UP class rules and started there, with what i felt i could build to be the best combo. Now getting rid of the ported heads would not only mean i would have to basically start from scratch as far as engine combos go (NO ONE runs unported heads, therefore no bench mark), i would also have to bank on the fact that i could get rid of already finished parts, and find a new set and have everything done again, praying that there is SO much left in a 2V, that it could compete (from scratch) with heads/combos that have been around since the beginning of time and were chosen as the best set out of 30ish. doesn't seem so appealing anymore :eek: We are trying to increase car counts aren't we? Stabile rules= more cars. lead is easier to come by than heads.

Not meant to be argumentative, but a reiteration of what Eric and Brandon have already interpreted my first post as, which was spot-on guys ;)
-Biff

The way the NMRA changes rules, the best thing to do is wait for the rules to come out. One reason I haven't decided on next years plans yet. They are suppose to be out soon this year. You could get good money for your ported set.

Let's look at the facts here, a stock 2v head out flows and E7 and you can run more compression than a pushrod and bigger cams at the same weight, so the smart person would say get a good head guy and do a great valve job and let it fly. Why is it so hard to believe? Maybe because everyone thinks if a head is CNC'ed it must be good. Guess what not always the fact. I know for a fact some of the markets nice CNC'ed heads have been on some flow benches and have been like WTF is this junk. It looks nice on the outside but that doesn't mean crap. Who has honestly put a serious effort into a stock headed 2v at the current weight????? 0. And I'll say it 1 more time I CHANGED MORE THAN THE HEADS ON MY CAR!

[shanshine]

Ken, I only said the ported 2v has way to many options for porting driving the cost through the roof. I feel under the current weight penalty the ported 2v is not much faster than the E7 but more could be found with hard work. The unported 2v could run with the E7, again, with hard work. The E7 is far from new to the class only new to the current combo. Not that the current combo had never been tried. I believe the E7 should be slowed down and said that in a previous post. Give the E7 only a 150 pound weight break instead of 250 and leave the unported 2v at a base weight of 2975 and call it a day.

Biff, Welcome to the NMRA. After spending countless dollars on my car and only making four races to have the entire rule book redone making my car obsolete, I went to Pure Street. I think the rules should be as stable as the next guy after what happened to me. But, I have never felt ported heads belong in Factory Stock. Just rename the class to Pure Stock or Factory Street. Then you will have a place to call home with your .510/.540 cam and ported heads.

Rey, The 4v was a very unkown variable and the 4v heads unported still flow more air than a ported Twist Wedge head. Jeff worked his ass off to get where he is and even with the gear rule given back to him wasnt enough to hang with the 1 1/2 year old ported 2v combo. How do you think he feels? I would be screaming fvck the NMRA louder than anyone on the planet. As for the ported 2v, well you didnt even know where it was going to go because you didnt have enough money to get your program down the track to begin with.

Dave Patti, not a single person has said anything about the work ethics because they dont lack in this class. Every one of the racers are top notch and work there hardest with what they have. The problem is, some have alot more available to them than others, myself being one of them. I came out in 2005 with a car that made the NMRA stop and say "where is this class going" and made alot of rule changes because of it. Ken, Steve, Justin, Mike, Tommy, Jeff, Brian, Jonathon, Louis, John Leslie, and the entire class have worked so hard to be only punished for their accomplishments it makes me sick. But, you have to draw a line somewhere. That line for me is ported heads. I say give the CC rule back to the 4v, pull the ported heads, slap 100 pounds on the E7's, keep the 2v at current weight and see where it goes. According to the 2v god himself, the E7 and 4v would still rule the sandbox. under these rules.

[Ryan Hecox]

Ken, I only said the ported 2v has way to many options for porting driving the cost through the roof. I feel under the current weight penalty the ported 2v is not much faster than the E7 but more could be found with hard work. The unported 2v could run with the E7, again, with hard work. The E7 is far from new to the class only new to the current combo. Not that the current combo had never been tried. I believe the E7 should be slowed down and said that in a previous post. Give the E7 only a 150 pound weight break instead of 250 and leave the unported 2v at a base weight of 2975 and call it a day.

Biff, Welcome to the NMRA. After spending countless dollars on my car and only making four races to have the entire rule book redone making my car obsolete, I went to Pure Street. I think the rules should be as stable as the next guy after what happened to me. But, I have never felt ported heads belong in Factory Stock. Just rename the class to Pure Stock or Factory Street. Then you will have a place to call home with your .510/.540 cam and ported heads.

Rey, The 4v was a very unkown variable and the 4v heads unported still flow more air than a ported Twist Wedge head. Jeff worked his ass off to get where he is and even with the gear rule given back to him wasnt enough to hang with the 1 1/2 year old ported 2v combo. How do you think he feels? I would be screaming fvck the NMRA louder than anyone on the planet. As for the ported 2v, well you didnt even know where it was going to go because you didnt have enough money to get your program down the track to begin with.

Dave Patti, not a single person has said anything about the work ethics because they dont lack in this class. Every one of the racers are top notch and work there hardest with what they have. The problem is, some have alot more available to them than others, myself being one of them. I came out in 2005 with a car that made the NMRA stop and say "where is this class going" and made alot of rule changes because of it. Ken, Steve, Justin, Mike, Tommy, Jeff, Brian, Jonathon, Louis, John Leslie, and the entire class have worked so hard to be only punished for their accomplishments it makes me sick. But, you have to draw a line somewhere. That line for me is ported heads. I say give the CC rule back to the 4v, pull the ported heads, slap 100 pounds on the E7's, keep the 2v at current weight and see where it goes. According to the 2v god himself, the E7 and 4v would still rule the sandbox. under these rules.

Yeah, the wife got me again with the whole loggin in on my laptop.... damn her.

This is Ryan

[John Leslie Jr.]

Hi guys,
Can i just have some weight taken off the GT-40 combo please...:D

[KenCook]

Todd ran a shitload of 12.0's with the old rules.
I'm sure Bob ran about there to.

Rey. In the year(s) you were racing what were the E7 combinations running?

[Brandon Alsept]

Let's look at the facts here, a stock 2v head out flows and E7 and you can run more compression than a pushrod and bigger cams at the same weight, so the smart person would say get a good head guy and do a great valve job and let it fly. Why is it so hard to believe? Maybe because everyone thinks if a head is CNC'ed it must be good. Guess what not always the fact. I know for a fact some of the markets nice CNC'ed heads have been on some flow benches and have been like WTF is this junk. It looks nice on the outside but that doesn't mean crap. Who has honestly put a serious effort into a stock headed 2v at the current weight????? 0. And I'll say it 1 more time I CHANGED MORE THAN THE HEADS ON MY CAR!


Ok well since the unported 2V and E7 combo is so close let it run @ 311 cubes;) Yeah compression is going to make power but only to a point then you are just wasting time milling heads. The 2V is going to need something in its favor to keep up that has now been proven threw your guys hard work with the E7 combo.(Plus what ever else you found) I still say that the rules should stay 95% the same for next year just play with the weight some.

So Tommy no one has put in a serious effort on a set of 2V heads? That is very looking in from teh outside talk there. Much like a Mod guy saying you did nothing less than put a E7 head on and you started running very fast;) With only two races with the E7s I don't feel anyone has put max effort in that head in TODAYS racing. Yeah the head has been around for many many years and Justin, Rich, and Mike have a ton of knowledge about that head. But, I bet there is more knowledge about a GT40 in that crowd. You guys have more left just like the 2V does so I see it as a fair offseason for you guys to try all these heads and porters;)

Now onto this whole entry level crap. Leave it at the door, even if it was a class that you bought a sealed motor and had to run that. The same teams would rise to the top, why you say? because they want to win and will do what it takes. They would be buying 3-4 sealed engines and trying them all to find which one is best. And you know they would so don't anyone argue that with me LOL.

Oh and for those that don't know Biff, he is that guy that lines me up and helps me take perfectley good engines apart in tech;)(AKA Crew Chief) So he is not brand new to the NMRA, or its twisted ways.

[KenB]

Come on. That's fuzzy. Barely keeping up? Do some more head work and it would get real ugly. Like Steve said the heads haven't been off the car. There's a lot left.

LOL, Now you're listening to Steve. The train is off the tracks now!


The only reason we were close to you guys at B.G. is because noone thought our car would go that fast coming in. You guys probably felt you had everyone covered. It was kind of cool seeing a pushrod run 119+ eh? If we ran that at Atco I think you guys would have stepped up your program and said maybe we should put some more in her.

Ok, now you're flat out either calling us lazy, stupid or sandbaggers. Bite me

[Jonathan Paulk]

I think this is the first time FS racers have had a discussion without it getting ugly, everybody has alot of good points....Man I wish I wasn't moving next year...Ooops never mind, looks like KenB got offended.....

[Eric@JPC]

LOL, Now you're listening to Steve. The train is off the tracks now!



Ok, now you're flat out either calling us lazy, stupid or sandbaggers. Bite me


i knew this was goin to happen.... well im not sure what tommy is getting at, but i know that you guys have been working hard on the car and it shows. Just in the short times alone.

for steves average to be .03-.04 faster in the 60 foot over tommy speaks for its self!!!

here is my idea on getting the ported head out of the program would be like i said a few pages ago. just make the ported head weight adder a little more drastic!

if the 2v ported combo weighs in at 3150 next year make the unported weitght 2900. Thats goin to make people think.... " i got 250# on lead in my trunk... are these heads worth it"

its just a thought,

i can see both sides of the story. like steve and my self we both ran with the ported combo! to just take it away would suck becasue we are starting from square one. I also see the take away side since it is "factory stock" but... in this day i feel Factory Stock in JUST A NAME. we can get in to a rather large debate over what factory stock realy is.......

2 years ago, there was weld in anti roll bars, race brakes, aluminum spools, Titanium this and that. alot of wild and crazy stuff know where NEAR factory. how ever we have cams now and some have some ported heads. So i think the stock word needs to be used losely.........

[Shawn Johnson]

It's easy to make a 2v fast. We saw that just recently:rolleyes:


I hope this was not a jab at Jeff’s blue car…

I will give Jeff some needed credit for what he was able to do with that car.
John and Mike did not have that motor sitting around completed. We were trying all 2v parts/heads on my RS project. Jeff told them if they put it together he would change the teal chassis to try it out. After some delay in obtaining parts (we have all been there) the motor was given Jeff two and half weeks from BG. Jeff added a cage himself, changed the suspension and picked a gear ratio. Plus had to change all of the headache making little stuff that takes the most time to find like brackets, pulleys, exhaust not fitting etc. Got it tuned and tried to find a track to test. He was able to go one time (track schedules do not help us needing testing) to the track and with all the cars there could only make 4 passes. I forgot to mention in testing the car was over weight by 50#s if I remember correct and it still has not been scaled or balanced for weight.. he had no time to get it done.. It hasn’t even been aligned yet.. With lighter motor in it, it looks like a 4 wheel drive car…
So with a new car, unknown chassis and suspension set up and not knowing what the motor wants for a driver in 4 passes he was able to get the car to run within 1 tenth of the Mach and 50s in the 60’ yes 1 tenth the first time out… Now out of time we had to go to BG… no time to test anything like a gear change which we thought it needed.. Jeff tried to do some testing at BG but was able to only make one partial pass and Tom said no more because Brian teched the car in. So there ended the testing and he needed to get the Mach as best he could seeing what everyone was running.
The teal car for BG was not 100%. It didn’t even have long tube headers on it, a cold air kit from Menards and an untested clutch etc. Brian had no seat time it till he got to the track and it does not like being shifted or launched like a 4v.
In short I’m bummed Jeff didn’t get the championship… He worked more then ever this last year and has been here for ever.. but that is racing… he does deserve credit for trying all he could though.. Plus I need to thank him for all the help on my RS project at the track and away..
Now as far as head porting… I will agree to the major difference in head work.
We have tested MANY heads with different porting and my motor has HAND ported heads that Killed all the CNC and the other hand ported ones so far by a lot.. We test ours with intake and exhaust on the heads… big difference from what the numbers you see advertised… on a blower car it doesn’t make as big of a difference as a NA motor I believe. So there is a chance for better and better leaps out of the 2v performance because no one knows who has THE BEST for the combo. Steve could have THE BEST right now but only testing will tell…. That is where the 2v has advantage… the ability to try more areas....


Oh ya…4v needs 100#s off

[Shawn Johnson]

Here is one more thing to consider..
You can do more to a FS 2v then you can a RS 2v…that’s not right… they need to change RS..:D

[Ryan Hecox]

I hope this was not a jab at Jeff’s blue car…

I will give Jeff some needed credit for what he was able to do with that car.
John and Mike did not have that motor sitting around completed. We were trying all 2v parts/heads on my RS project. Jeff told them if they put it together he would change the teal chassis to try it out. After some delay in obtaining parts (we have all been there) the motor was given Jeff two and half weeks from BG. Jeff added a cage himself, changed the suspension and picked a gear ratio. Plus had to change all of the headache making little stuff that takes the most time to find like brackets, pulleys, exhaust not fitting etc. Got it tuned and tried to find a track to test. He was able to go one time (track schedules do not help us needing testing) to the track and with all the cars there could only make 4 passes.
So with a new car, unknown chassis and suspension set up and not knowing what the motor wants for a driver in 4 passes he was able to get the car to run within 1 tenth of the Mach and 50s in the 60’ yes 1 tenth the first time out… Now out of time we had to go to BG… no time to test anything like a gear change which we thought it needed.. Jeff tried to do some testing at BG but was able to only make one partial pass and Tom said no more because Brian teched the car in. So there ended the testing and he needed to get the Mach as best he could seeing what everyone was running.
The teal car for BG was not 100%. It didn’t even have long tube headers on it, a cold air kit from Menards and an untested clutch etc. Brian had no seat time it till he got to the track and it does not like being shifted or launched like a 4v.
In short I’m bummed Jeff didn’t get the championship… He worked more then ever this last year and has been here for ever.. but that is racing… he does deserve credit for trying all he could though.. Plus I need to thank him for all the help on my RS project at the track and away..
Now as far as head porting… I will agree to the major difference in head work.
We have tested MANY heads with different porting and my motor has HAND ported heads that Killed all the CNC and the other hand ported ones so far by a lot.. We test ours with intake and exhaust on the heads… big difference from what the numbers you see advertised… on a blower car it doesn’t make as big of a difference as a NA motor I believe. So there is a chance for better and better leaps out of the 2v performance because no one knows who has THE BEST for the combo. Steve could have THE BEST right now but only testing will tell…. That is where the 2v has advantage… the ability to try more areas....


Oh ya…4v needs 100#s off


One thing no one has mentioned here is what head was Brian running in the teal car.... ported or unported?

oh yeah, pull 100#'s on the 4v!

[Ryan Hecox]

Here is one more thing to consider..
You can do more to a FS 2v then you can a RS 2v…that’s not right… they need to change RS..:D


So what your saying is that RS is more entry level cost wise than FS? lol

"Hey ya'll! Lets save some money and go run RS!"

[Tommy@JPC]

LOL, Now you're listening to Steve. The train is off the tracks now! Was Steve lying? I thought you said the same thing in the pits at Columbus?


Ok, now you're flat out either calling us lazy, stupid or sandbaggers. Bite me None of the above I said noone thought we would be that fast. Are you saying the expressions on the starting line on my qual. pass of an 11.33 @ 119 + wasn't like whoa!

No I will not Bite you. Damn it your getting excited again. I'm really not trying to pick anything with you guys. I think the rules are close. I think the ported 2v needs alittle weight maybe 75lbs, the gt40 needs a diet and maybe throw the 4v alittle diet (not 100lbs) probably put 25lbs on the E7's. I can't take much more. I've tested this combo heavy. It's sucks.

And please stop telling us we can make more power with our unported heads. We have the best castings / flow numbers / camshaft / everything for both pushrod combos. I've run the quickest and fastest passes with both combos. We cannot change airflow. This is not just for you Ken.

[Shawn Johnson]

One thing no one has mentioned here is what head was Brian running in the teal car.... ported or unported?

oh yeah, pull 100#'s on the 4v!

Unported.......ooooh do you mean the motor...... those were ported... Sorry Brian a couldn't resist....

[Tommy@JPC]

Ok well since the unported 2V and E7 combo is so close let it run @ 311 cubes;) Yeah compression is going to make power but only to a point then you are just wasting time milling heads. The 2V is going to need something in its favor to keep up that has now been proven threw your guys hard work with the E7 combo.(Plus what ever else you found) I still say that the rules should stay 95% the same for next year just play with the weight some. Come on, seriously. A stroker and lots of compression with hugh cams equal?

So Tommy no one has put in a serious effort on a set of 2V heads? That is very looking in from teh outside talk there. Much like a Mod guy saying you did nothing less than put a E7 head on and you started running very fast;) With only two races with the E7s I don't feel anyone has put max effort in that head in TODAYS racing. Yeah the head has been around for many many years and Justin, Rich, and Mike have a ton of knowledge about that head. But, I bet there is more knowledge about a GT40 in that crowd. You guys have more left just like the 2V does so I see it as a fair offseason for you guys to try all these heads and porters;) I never said a serious effort hasn't been put out, but there is more left for sure. It's borderline endless with porting. We can't port remember.

[Tommy@JPC]

I hope this was not a jab at Jeff’s blue car…

I will give Jeff some needed credit for what he was able to do with that car.
John and Mike did not have that motor sitting around completed. We were trying all 2v parts/heads on my RS project. Jeff told them if they put it together he would change the teal chassis to try it out. After some delay in obtaining parts (we have all been there) the motor was given Jeff two and half weeks from BG. Jeff added a cage himself, changed the suspension and picked a gear ratio. Plus had to change all of the headache making little stuff that takes the most time to find like brackets, pulleys, exhaust not fitting etc. Got it tuned and tried to find a track to test. He was able to go one time (track schedules do not help us needing testing) to the track and with all the cars there could only make 4 passes.
So with a new car, unknown chassis and suspension set up and not knowing what the motor wants for a driver in 4 passes he was able to get the car to run within 1 tenth of the Mach and 50s in the 60’ yes 1 tenth the first time out… Now out of time we had to go to BG… no time to test anything like a gear change which we thought it needed.. Jeff tried to do some testing at BG but was able to only make one partial pass and Tom said no more because Brian teched the car in. So there ended the testing and he needed to get the Mach as best he could seeing what everyone was running.
The teal car for BG was not 100%. It didn’t even have long tube headers on it, a cold air kit from Menards and an untested clutch etc. Brian had no seat time it till he got to the track and it does not like being shifted or launched like a 4v.
In short I’m bummed Jeff didn’t get the championship… He worked more then ever this last year and has been here for ever.. but that is racing… he does deserve credit for trying all he could though.. Plus I need to thank him for all the help on my RS project at the track and away..
Now as far as head porting… I will agree to the major difference in head work.
We have tested MANY heads with different porting and my motor has HAND ported heads that Killed all the CNC and the other hand ported ones so far by a lot.. We test ours with intake and exhaust on the heads… big difference from what the numbers you see advertised… on a blower car it doesn’t make as big of a difference as a NA motor I believe. So there is a chance for better and better leaps out of the 2v performance because no one knows who has THE BEST for the combo. Steve could have THE BEST right now but only testing will tell…. That is where the 2v has advantage… the ability to try more areas....


Oh ya…4v needs 100#s off


Pat, Pat, Pat. Poke. Most everyone did A LOT of work in the short layover. It was a great idea and it was worth a shot. Kudo's :)

[Brandon Alsept]

And please stop telling us we can make more power with our unported heads. We have the best castings / flow numbers / camshaft / everything for both pushrod combos. I've run the quickest and fastest passes with both combos. We cannot change airflow. This is not just for you Ken.


So you have tested the what 3-4 million sets ford made to know you have the best?:rolleyes: I have three sets in the garage that I know you havn't tested LOL I use them for boat anchors;)

[Brandon Alsept]

Come on, seriously. A stroker and lots of compression with hugh cams equal?
I never said a serious effort hasn't been put out, but there is more left for sure. It's borderline endless with porting. We can't port remember.

Yes I am very familiar with the rule book;) You may not have said it 100% that there was not a serious effort. You don't have to say it you paint a fairly clear picture on what you think.

[Shawn Johnson]

Pat, Pat, Pat. Poke. Most everyone did A LOT of work in the short layover. It was a great idea and it was worth a shot. Kudo's :)

That is what we thought... worth a shot.. we just ran out of time to get everything done... car does have great potential...I just wanted everyone to know it wasn’t something he worked on all summer and that's all he could do with it…

By the way kudo's on the E7 try also..... Maybe Bob is trying to find his old coup right now...

[Tommy@JPC]

So you have tested the what 3-4 million sets ford made to know you have the best?:rolleyes: I have three sets in the garage that I know you havn't tested LOL I use them for boat anchors;)

Obviously you don't need to go thru 3 million. :p But a good few for sure.

And your right, it's pretty clear that a combo that can PORT their heads, run a very high compression and run pretty much any camshaft they want isn't a hugh advantage. So is that a portrait?