Hmmmm

[Gene Hindman]

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Just as I said........Hmmmmmm Must have been NMRA legal or atleast real close, I figured you couldn't get too much more weight out.

[Perky]

Just as I said........Hmmmmmm Must have been NMRA legal or atleast real close, I figured you couldn't get too much more weight out.

yeah i saw that.. I will re-send my rules changes for next year.. I am sure there is more in that combo still...... Just hope the NMRA keeps it close so we don't have to have the problems like Factory Stock...

[Brandon Alsept]

No it was way from NMRA legal. We couldn't get any more weight out with the 2V With the 4V we had to add a nice chunk of weight. So just some fun at the end of the year in 1000' air with no weight in the car.

What about your 10.2? @ Bowling Green Gene?

[vrtical]

yeah i saw that.. I will re-send my rules changes for next year.. I am sure there is more in that combo still...... Just hope the NMRA keeps it close so we don't have to have the problems like Factory Stock...

Soo you guys want to base your rule change submissions based on some testing done which nobody else knows with what, thats good. Victor and I are still in the 11's. Victor has gone 11.0's and I went 11.33 @3120 this past week TESTING. Ken has his car working and it didn't just happen overnight.

[Teddy]

I'd be pretty certain that the minimum weight will be back @3100 lbs.

[Gene Hindman]

What about your 10.26 @ Bowling Green Gene? It is very well earned, I've been in the class since it orginated in 1998 at WFC-1. I have had the same combo since and made improvements everyday I go to the track. I have made over 150 passes a year since 2001 in the same car with the same similar combination. That's over 600 passes in 4 years in the same car. I have tried over 25 cams, I have tried 4 sets of heads, 4 rocker ratios, 4 rear gear ratios, 4 transmissions, 2 different sized tires in the rear, 3 different sized tires in the front, 3 different sets of struts, 2 different sets of control arms, 3 K-Members with the engine in different locations, 4 sets of headers, 4 sets of different Mufflers, 3 different X-Pipes, 2 Hoods, 4 shifters, 2 seats (Looking for comfortability), 2 ignition boxes, 2 distibutors, 5 Processors, 4 Mass Airs, 3 Intakes, 3 sets of pistons, 2 sets of rods and 2 cranks. And that's just in the last 3 years. I'm sure there are more, I am just making a point. I originally posted the first post for props, but I can see where it's going.

Ken has his car working and it didn't just happen overnight.
Maybe not overnight, but pretty close. Just depends on who you are comparing it to.

[Brandon Alsept]

It is very well earned, I've been in the class since it orginated in 1998 at WFC-1. I have had the same combo since and made improvements everyday I go to the track. I have made over 150 passes a year since 2001 in the same car with the same similar combination. I have tried over 25 cams, I have tried 4 sets of heads, 4 rocker ratios, 4 rear gear ratios, 4 transmissions, 2 different sized tires in the rear, 3 different sized tires in the front, 3 different sets of struts, 2 different sets of control arms, 3 K-Members with the engine in different locations, 4 sets of headers, 4 sets of different Mufflers, 3 different X-Pipes, 2 Hoods, 4 shifters, 2 seats (Looking for comfortability), 2 ignition boxes, 2 distibutors, 5 Processors, 4 Mass Airs, 3 Intakes, 3 sets of pistons, 2 sets of rods and 2 cranks. And that's just in the last 3 years. I'm sure there are more, I am just making a point. I originally posted the first post for props, but I can see where it's going.


Maybe not overnight, but pretty close. Just depends on who you are comparing it to.

OK so because you have tried a bunch of stuff you deserve to run faster than other people? How many parts do you think Mike and John have tried and broke to get the knowledge they have to build these engines? I am sure it dwarfs your list.

As far as the car it works so you take a working car and a engine builder that has the knowledge they do you are bound to have a working combo.

I think it would be nuts for NMRA to change the rules based on off season testing which they have no idea of the legality of the car based on there rules. They have to go off what the car runs in NMRA trim.

[Gene Hindman]

OK so because you have tried a bunch of stuff you deserve to run faster than other people?.
Well, actually it isn't "deserve"...it's "earned"
How many parts do you think Mike and John have tried and broke to get the knowledge they have to build these engines? I am sure it dwarfs your list.
.
Now you're just trying to make it personal, but I'll tell you this....They, nor anyone else with a Modular has tried anywhere near what I have tried with the Pushrods....simple fact of the matter is, There aint that many things to try with them yet. Maybe in 7 years, there will be. Besides, this is their first Pure Street engine they have built, I am sure they will get even better and smarter as time goes by. Not the same playing field as other classes. Just ask anyone who has been at the top of one class and switched classes only to fall to the bottom for a couple of years.

[Brandon Alsept]

Well, actually it isn't "deserve"...it's "earned"

Now you're just trying to make it personal, but I'll tell you this....They, nor anyone else with a Modular has tried anywhere near what I have tried with the Pushrods....simple fact of the matter is, There aint that many things to try with them yet. Maybe in 7 years, there will be.


I am not trying to make this personal in the least, just trying to have a conversation about rules being based on runs they know are at there rules, not on runs that happen offseason while they have no idea what the car has in it for lets say fuel, weight, engine.

[Gene Hindman]

just trying to have a conversation about rules being based on runs they know are at there rules, not on runs that happen offseason while they have no idea what the car has in it for lets say fuel, weight, engine.
No big deal about it being the off season. I am sure NMRA will make the decisions they make off what the capabilties are during race conditions on race day. I can assure you that they do not care what is done in the off time.
On a side note: 10.40's @ 129 with an unproven combination and only 2 races on it, is very fast.

[Teddy]

No big deal about it being the off season. I am sure NMRA will make the decisions they make off what the capabilties are during race conditions on race day. I can assure you that they do not care what is done in the off time.
On a side note: 10.40's @ 129 with an unproven combination and only 2 races on it, is very fast.
And based on that "NMRA" pass I do believe the powers to be are tacking the weight back on to even with the pushrods @3100. How do I know this....we'll just have to see;)

[Brandon Alsept]

Well the way I see it looks like the field is very tight right now with both combos. The 4.6 is still not as fast as the 5.0s maybe we are looking at it wrong maybe we should ask for some more weight off. I mean Rich ran a 10.2 @ 131 in what we can say was basically legal. Or maybe the 5.0s need weight put on them. :rolleyes:


I almost love the off season more than the season with all this debating LOL

[Jonathan Paulk]

LOL LOL...I knew this was going to happend to PS!!!......

[MP-Mike]

Well, actually it isn't "deserve"...it's "earned"

Now you're just trying to make it personal, but I'll tell you this....They, nor anyone else with a Modular has tried anywhere near what I have tried with the Pushrods....simple fact of the matter is, There aint that many things to try with them yet. Maybe in 7 years, there will be. Besides, this is their first Pure Street engine they have built, I am sure they will get even better and smarter as time goes by. Not the same playing field as other classes. Just ask anyone who has been at the top of one class and switched classes only to fall to the bottom for a couple of years.


Don't break any ribs pounding your chest tooo hard Gene!

You don't have a clue as to what I've done in the realm of testing this or that. Oh, thats right! I just started playing with engines last year in Shawns car.:rolleyes:

[vrtical]

simple fact of the matter is, There aint that many things to try with them yet. Maybe in 7 years, there will be.

Last time I checked DOHC technology has been around for quite a while. I have been racing with modular stuff since 2001, but thats a small comparison to others like Mike, Al, and eveyone else whos been at it for many many years. I think its premature to add weight already, its my opinion and you have yours. We can talk potential all day long and any combo allways has more potential. Ken goes 10.40's and you guys can go 10.20's. 2 tenths in a N/A class is alot. I am chasing Ken as eveyone else is chasing you.

[Steve Moberley]

I think Gene's point is this. It took about 5 seasons before the pushrod cars were running faster than 10.50, and it was only a couple of the top cars at that. The 4Vs combination is running very very fast with a very short PS history. I'm not trying to take anything away from the racers who have been pioneering the 4v cars, and running 10.40s in anything PS legal is an accomplishment.

Pure Street has been about the most balanced class in NMRA racing. It would really be too bad if the 4Vs were allowed to run wild and screw it up.

Factory Stock is a joke now, hopefully the NMRA is learning from their mistakes in that class.

Steve

[Brandon Alsept]

I think Gene's point is this. It took about 5 seasons before the pushrod cars were running faster than 10.50, and it was only a couple of the top cars at that. The 4Vs combination is running very very fast with a very short PS history. I'm not trying to take anything away from the racers who have been pioneering the 4v cars, and running 10.40s in anything PS legal is an accomplishment.

Pure Street has been about the most balanced class in NMRA racing. It would really be too bad if the 4Vs were allowed to run wild and screw it up.

Factory Stock is a joke now, hopefully the NMRA is learning from their mistakes in that class.

Steve


So what you are saying is that a team that gets it right in a short amount of time should be punished? Just because there hasn't been a 4V in P/S every year doesn't mean it hasn't been in peoples minds while they have built stuff. You think John & Mike, and Al haven't paid close attention to engines they are building and loosely basing them on certain classes? So that when the chance arrives they have a idea on what they can build.

The way I see it you have 2-5.0 guys running 10.20s, and a few others running 30s. Ken ran a 10.48 in NMRA trim at a race while on a level playing field based on NMRAs rules. Now look at this for a second, there where 3-4 valve combos out this year in P/S this year one is in the 10s the other two are in the 11s. You think that there hasn't been work and effort go into that combo?

You are kinda right about the F/S comparison a certain combo is running .18 faster than another one. But in this case it is the 5.0s out running the 4.6s. So how is no one looking at it that way?

[JWilson]

Soo you guys want to base your rule change submissions based on some testing done which nobody else knows with what, thats good. Victor and I are still in the 11's. Victor has gone 11.0's and I went 11.33 @3120 this past week TESTING. Ken has his car working and it didn't just happen overnight.
What was the rule change based on that took 200# off the 4V in mid season when there wasn't even a 4V running in the class??

[FS MACH1]

I think Gene's point is this. It took about 5 seasons before the pushrod cars were running faster than 10.50, and it was only a couple of the top cars at that. The 4Vs combination is running very very fast with a very short PS history. I'm not trying to take anything away from the racers who have been pioneering the 4v cars, and running 10.40s in anything PS legal is an accomplishment.

Pure Street has been about the most balanced class in NMRA racing. It would really be too bad if the 4Vs were allowed to run wild and screw it up.

Factory Stock is a joke now, hopefully the NMRA is learning from their mistakes in that class.

Steve

Steve maybe we just need someone like Gene or Rich in FS for the
pushrods , seems that the JPC car has been untouched since the
previous year 2004 and Denny made great strides and ran 11.39 in WFC
with just a race pulley and MTs (so they told me ) not sure why
his passes there didnt carry on thru the year at NMRA for him ?

the pushrods in PS found a couple tenths this year , i suppose
none of that can be applied to FS ???


EXACTLY WHAT WAS THE MISTAKE IN FACTORY STOCK ?

SOMEONE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE RULES IN PLACE .......:eek:

NOW THATS NOT HAPPENING IN ANY OTHER CLASS IS IT :confused:

OH :rolleyes: wait when its among similar combinations its alright:rolleyes:

[KenB]

The last thing I want is for this to turn into a F/S style arguement. But I feel I should comment anyway.

1)The car was light, I was not running spec fuel and there were a few other changes.

Based on your math Gene (not mine), you said that every 65-85 lbs. is .1 in ET. I was over 100 lbs. light. That brings me close to what I ran in BG.

2)This did NOT happen overnight. As was already stated Mike and John have been working with the 4V for a long time now. Although there weren't P/S cars entered into the field during this time, alot of testing has been going on over the years.

3)Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the 2 other P/S 4V cars in the class are still in the 11's. One engine being built by last years R/S champ Tim Matherly and the other being built by PER Race Engine. Neither of those companines can be considered slackers by any stretch.

4)Unlike some racers, I'm not going to 'sandbag'. I'm going to run the car out everytime, I have nothing to hide. I could just as easily not posted about my 10.29 or run that 10.48 in BG to protect myself from a off season rule change. But that's not my style.

5)Let's use the F/S arguement. Take the fastest 4V pass and the fastest 5.0 pass from last year. I believe that would be my 10.48 and Gene's 10.31 That is a difference of .17 With almost an identical margin, the slower 5.0 combo is asking for a rule change to get them closer in F/S. So I guess I should be asking for a rule change to get me closer? (I'm not)

There are some things in this thread that I take offense to, but commenting on them is only going to fuel the arguments. So I'll save alll of that for the track. The Modulars have been in Mustangs for over 10 years now, time to start accepting the fact that we are getting them to work well. This has not been an overnight process.

Regardless of what is said in this thread or what the NMRA decides to do, we'll be ready for next year. See you in Bradenton.

Ken

[vrtical]

What was the rule change based on that took 200# off the 4V in mid season when there wasn't even a 4V running in the class??

Victor Downs switched to a 4V for the Michigan race and has been running one every since. At the time Victor had gone low 11's up to that point with a 2V modular combination along with Ken. He switched to a 4V and being a new combo hasn't gone any faster. At that time the weight for the 4V was 3100. I believe Maple Grove was the first event allowed to run a 4V combination at 2900 lbs.

[Steve Moberley]

So what you are saying is that a team that gets it right in a short amount of time should be punished??

No, what I am saying is that I hope NMRA keeps an eye on these cars so they don't run away with it like they have in Factory Stock. I don't believe I suggested any "punishment" for the 4V cars.

And it's not just motor either. The fast 5.0 guys have been running their car for years. They've been to these venues time and again, they've got hundreds of passes on their cars. They've refined and re-refined their junk to work as well as it does. Nobody gets that down without lots of data, and that takes time no matter how good your engine guy is.

Now look at this for a second, there where 3-4 valve combos out this year in P/S this year one is in the 10s the other two are in the 11s. You think that there hasn't been work and effort go into that combo? ?

Let's put ego aside here. Nobody said there wasn't work and effort in that combo. I believe I even said "running 10.40s in anything PS legal is an accomplishment."

Additionally, effort and work is completely irrelevant to the issue. It takes effort and work to run 10.40s in a nitrous powered HCI car. That doesn't make it a balanced combo to run in Pure Street.

the pushrods in PS found a couple tenths this year , i suppose
none of that can be applied to FS ???:

I don't believe it can be. The PS cars found RPMs. Show me how a 5.0 FS car is going to find some more RPM? I don't think they're going to pick up .2 in the 60'....


EXACTLY WHAT WAS THE MISTAKE IN FACTORY STOCK ?

SOMEONE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE RULES IN PLACE .......:eek:

NOW THATS NOT HAPPENING IN ANY OTHER CLASS IS IT :confused:

OH :rolleyes: wait when its among similar combinations its alright:rolleyes:

Here's a rolleyes for you: What does a GT-40 iron head flow compared to a 4V Cobra head? Once you dig that out, let's talk about the difference between 4V cams and stock 5.0 cams.

Too late now, but the mistake in FS was probably allowing the 4V cars in the first place. They don't have them in Real Street...

The fact is that a DOHC motor has significant advantages over a pushrod motor. The fact is that many engine builders say that the 4V is poised to take over Pure Street.

Steve

[KenB]

And it's not just motor either. The fast 5.0 guys have been running their car for years. They've been to these venues time and again, they've got hundreds of passes on their cars. They've refined and re-refined their junk to work as well as it does. Nobody gets that down without lots of data, and that takes time no matter how good your engine guy is.
Steve

Agreed. And this is the 3rd year I have been running the same car in the NMRA. 2003 Bowling Green it went a best of 11.99, last year BG it went a best of 11.07 (I think), this year the best is an 10.48. Each year their have been signifcant changes due to alot of testing each year. Doesn't sound "overnight" to me. Granted, I don't make alot of races but I do ALOT of testing. Not nearly as much this year but in 03 and 04 I had 100-140 passes each year.

[Brandon Alsept]

No, what I am saying is that I hope NMRA keeps an eye on these cars so they don't run away with it like they have in Factory Stock.

I agree with that statement in a way. I do hope NMRA keeps the P/S class as tight as possible. But, they(NMRA) need to watch all the sides also. Just because ONE 4V has done good in P/S its time to change all the rules. Then that 4V is still close to .2 behind the pushrod cars.

I don't believe I suggested any "punishment" for the 4V cars.

While you may not have blatantly suggested it, but you are implying it pretty clearly. You are saying the 4V needs slowed down when it hasn't ran close to the pushrod cars.

And it's not just motor either. The fast 5.0 guys have been running their car for years. They've been to these venues time and again, they've got hundreds of passes on their cars. They've refined and re-refined their junk to work as well as it does. Nobody gets that down without lots of data, and that takes time no matter how good your engine guy is.

So Ken hasn't been running his car for years? Like I said we have worked on that car alot and have 100s of passes on it, the carWORKS


Additionally, effort and work is completely irrelevant to the issue. It takes effort and work to run 10.40s in a nitrous powered HCI car. That doesn't make it a balanced combo to run in Pure Street.

Well that seems to be the big complaint about the 4V that there is no work or effort involved with it yet. And it hasn't earned the right to run with the pushrod cars. Why bring up a power adder car for a comparison in a limited N/A class?


I am not trying to argue with anyone here or start fights. It is just a good ol debate. I myself feel the rules are fine the way they are until proven otherwise. The field is close and will be a great class to watch/race next year. If any combo has a advantage over the other I think they should see how it goes in the first 2-3 races then make changes based on those ETs and such.

[Steve Moberley]

While you may not have blatantly suggested it, but you are implying it pretty clearly. You are saying the 4V needs slowed down when it hasn't ran close to the pushrod cars.

I'm not implying or saying that. I said that NMRA needs to keep an eye on this situation so it doesn't get out of hand. A little bit of foresight would be useful also, since we all hate those mid-season rules changes.


Well that seems to be the big complaint about the 4V that there is no work or effort involved with it yet. And it hasn't earned the right to run with the pushrod cars.

I thought the big complaint about the 4V car was that it had the capability to dominate the class, based on the fact that it is a superior air pump to the 5.0?

Why bring up a power adder car for a comparison in a limited N/A class?

Please reread the quote with regard for the word irrelevant. It makes perfect sense, I swear.


So Ken hasn't been running his car for years? Like I said we have worked on that car alot and have 100s of passes on it, the carWORKS


Agreed. And this is the 3rd year I have been running the same car in the NMRA. Doesn't sound "overnight" to me. Granted, I don't make alot of races but I do ALOT of testing. Not nearly as much this year but in 03 and 04 I had 100-140 passes each year.

I don't think the issue with the 4V is that it is easy, anyone who has worked on both (even a little) knows that isn't true, but since you guys keep bringing it up...

How much is "a lot." ? As in you do "a lot" of testing, you work on the car "a lot". That's talking without saying anything. Find me an NMRA racer in any class that doesn't work on his car "a lot." Just because Gene says he works on his car "a lot" and you say you work on your car "a lot", doesn't mean you work on your cars the same amount.

Relatively speaking, and we're talking about 10.40s here, 3 years is pretty much overnight. Especially when you don't go to a lot of the races. Especially considering you picked up .58 this year! How many races in the past 3 years have the top 5.0 guys been to? The ones that run the same or faster than you?

Steve

[KenB]

How much is "a lot." ? As in you do "a lot" of testing, you work on the car "a lot". That's talking without saying anything. Find me an NMRA racer in any class that doesn't work on his car "a lot." Just because Gene says he works on his car "a lot" and you say you work on your car "a lot", doesn't mean you work on your cars the same amount.


I'd say 169 dyno pulls on my car since 6/04 is alot. I'd say 100-140 passes a year is alot. And, since I own a shop, I probably mess with my car just about every day.

I'm sure Gene does work on his car alot, and so does everyone else. But by some of the posts in this thread, some people are trying to say that we did this overnight and didn't work very hard at it. If you think 3 years is overnight, then I can't really argue with you.


Relatively speaking, and we're talking about 10.40s here, 3 years is pretty much overnight. Especially when you don't go to a lot of the races. Especially considering you picked up .58 this year! How many races in the past 3 years have the top 5.0 guys been to? The ones that run the same or faster than you?

Steve

The amount of races I got to really doesn't matter. It makes no sense to do my testing at races. I proved that when I switched to the 4V and didn't have any time to test but I still went to Chicago and Columbus.

I picked up .58 by switching combos. I was running a 2V up until Chicago this year. Again, I don't see what the amount of races someone goes to has anything to do with this conversation. NOT going to races allows me to test more than if I go to the races.

I thought the big complaint about the 4V car was that it had the capability to dominate the class, based on the fact that it is a superior air pump to the 5.0?

I don't know what the big complaint is about, I don't have one. :) You seem to be ignoring the fact that the 5.0 has a 22 ci advantage.

[Mark Whitney]

I don't think any rule changes should be made yet. Leave everything alone and see what next year brings...Ken still hasn't been as fast as the pushrod cars. Most racers knew it would only be a matter of time until a competitive 4V car would be built, so let's see what happens.

[Perky]

I don't think any rule changes should be made yet. Leave everything alone and see what next year brings...Ken still hasn't been as fast as the pushrod cars. Most racers knew it would only be a matter of time until a competitive 4V car would be built, so let's see what happens.

Who asked you??? :eek: :cool:

[Brandon Alsept]

I thought the big complaint about the 4V car was that it had the capability to dominate the class, based on the fact that it is a superior air pump to the 5.0?


Ok this is not an arguing statement so don't take it that way. If both engines(Air Pumps) are working at the same efficiency level, and the same RPM wouldn't the Bigger pump be the superior pump? More air =s more power. With one pump at the limit of 289 and one at 311 that is a 22 cubic inch bigger pump.

[Steve Moberley]

The amount of races I got to really doesn't matter. It makes no sense to do my testing at races. I proved that when I switched to the 4V and didn't have any time to test but I still went to Chicago and Columbus.

I picked up .58 by switching combos. I was running a 2V up until Chicago this year. Again, I don't see what the amount of races someone goes to has anything to do with this conversation. NOT going to races allows me to test more than if I go to the races.


OK, now we're getting someplace. So then you've only got 2-3 months on your 4V, replete with the driving, weight, and associated mechanical changes, and you're running all but up front.

You were .22 behind Gene in C-bus qualifying with no testing? You can't see why anyone would think that maybe the 4V is going to be a problem?

What is your definition of overnight, then? Literally an evening and the following day?

As far as i know of that's the quickest anyone has ever gotten a new combo into the bottom 10s in Pure Street.


You seem to be ignoring the fact that the 5.0 has a 22 ci advantage.

Because I think it's absolutely irrelevant, yes. The 4V has a 16 valve advantage. The 4V has a 3 cam advantage.

You should be commended for your efforts. That car is running awesome, and you've done a very good job with it.

I think it's also objectively obvious that the 4V is an inherently superior combination with the current rules.

Ok this is not an arguing statement so don't take it that way. If both engines(Air Pumps) are working at the same efficiency level, and the same RPM wouldn't the Bigger pump be the superior pump? More air =s more power. With one pump at the limit of 289 and one at 311 that is a 22 cubic inch bigger pump.

That is correct, However...

If both engines(Air Pumps) are working at the same efficiency level, and the same RPM ...

That's a big IF, and in this case, they aren't the same efficiency. That's the core of the problem really.

Steve

[Brandon Alsept]

That is correct, However...



That's a big IF, and in this case, they aren't the same efficiency. That's the core of the problem really.

Steve

That is why I said IF lol.

[KenB]

OK, now we're getting someplace. So then you've only got 2-3 months on your 4V, replete with the driving, weight, and associated mechanical changes, and you're running all but up front.


The only real difference is the RPM. Same weight as the 2V (within 50lbs) and there are no associated mechanical changes except the engine itself.

You were .22 behind Gene in C-bus qualifying with no testing? You can't see why anyone would think that maybe the 4V is going to be a problem?


I didn't know that going fast is a 'problem'. You make us Modular guys sound like a disease. LOL .2 is alot in drag racing, we all know that. Could the car go quicker? Yes, and I did at BG. That's about all the car has in it. Maybe a little more, but not .17



What is your definition of overnight, then? Literally an evening and the following day?


Overnight is within a few races. Although the 4V is new, the car is not. Like I said, the only real difference between the 4v and the 2v is the RPM and power. The chassis and driving really haven't been affected.

As far as i know of that's the quickest anyone has ever gotten a new combo into the bottom 10s in Pure Street.



You should be commended for your efforts. That car is running awesome, and you've done a very good job with it.

Thank you and I appreciate it. But Modular Performance deserves most of the credit.


Regardless of how all this pans out, I want everyone to know that this internet stuff can be taken too seriously so we should make that clear right now. It seems to have driven a wedge between the Mods and pushrods in F/S and I don't want that to happen in P/S. I think I get along well with everyone and when everyone gets along, it makes racing alot more fun. So please don't take my comments out of context, this thread is more fun (and a good discussion) than anything else.

Ken

[Ed Curtis]

Now what are the rules for the three valve??? ;)

Ed

[Ian Mullane]

Hey Mike, got a can of worms smiley??:cool:

Come on Gene, we all know your putting Roberts motor in your car for next year. ;)

[Fast Orange]

Well the way I see it looks like the field is very tight right now with both combos. The 4.6 is still not as fast as the 5.0s maybe we are looking at it wrong maybe we should ask for some more weight off. I mean Rich ran a 10.2 @ 131 in what we can say was basically legal. Or maybe the 5.0s need weight put on them. :rolleyes:


HaHaHaHa (pause) HaHaHaHa This is too funny!

Come on Guys, I promise our 4V isn't any faster than a pushrod car. Wait till we kick everyone's a$$ for the first 3 races, then you can add some weight. After all we just figured the clutch out before BG.... :rolleyes:

Ok, I know I'm just a disgruntled pushrod F/S'er. (LOL)

[Gene Hindman]

Don't break any ribs pounding your chest tooo hard Gene!
I got news for you...I don't have to pound my chest. But it does sound like you want your back patted. I just let you know what I have put into my program, and I think everyone else should also. Now with the results I have accomplished, nevermind....

You don't have a clue as to what I've done in the realm of testing this or that. Oh, thats right! I just started playing with engines last year in Shawns car.:rolleyes:
Don't tell me I don't have a clue...I know what is available for those 4 valves and how long the technology has been around. The fact of the matter is, that the 2 didn't go together until late 99. You can forget about any of the 4 valve crap before then. You also know what I am talking about, but seem to want to stretch it into something else. There aren't that many heads and intakes and cams available for you to try. I would be a fool to think that you have only tried one head porter also right? Or one cam grinder?
I am fixing to piss alot of people off because I am tired of sugar coating the problems. But it takes years to get the right parts figured out for each combination and Shawn's is not a P/S car and it will take some time to get it right when it is also. Shit doesn't happen over night, and I will tell any of you that over night is in a 3-4 race span. F/S rules are way out of proportion, the problem is that they can't add more weight to them, because of the parts breakage. You want to compare different classes, let's do. If Shawn was to make a perfect pass, and I mean perfect. I wont get into what I know right now unless this continues. But anyway, if he was to make a perfect pass, then the 5 liters would be .4-.5 behind, maybe more. Now tell me what would happen to that class if the 4 valves weighed 200 lbs less than the 5.0? I don't care what you think you know (pound that chest???) You will always learn more every time you go to the track. There is alot of well known engine builders and head porters in P/S right now. One would tend to think they know all there is to know about the pushrod car...Not true. Not even close, just ask them. They are always learning and they are always improving, and that's what will happen to the 4 valve over time also. Right now, it has been GIVEN the 10.40's..Not earned
Ken, you just put this engine in the car, I have had tolerance for all the BS, but you also told me that you couldn't get the car no where near the minimum weight for the 2 Valve stuff last year. So I know about how much weight can be pulled. If you have ran over a 100 passes all together in 3 years, I would be suprised. I have just reached a 100 passes this year alone and I know you aint out every weekend like I am. And I log every pass. That car sat in the corner alot more than you are letting on. Previous posts by all of the defenders right now have and are going to burn you. I remember alot..and I mean alot of what each of you say. Good thing for most of you that the board has lost alot info in the past few months. You have been to less races in 3 years, than we had total this year alone. I like you, but don't feed me full of crap, I am not stupid. Don't portray me to be. I watched you run in Columbus, and I heard how everything was going...I know you had some problems..But that doesn't contribute to what I saw. You didn't act like you had been in that car very much at all.
Now for all the crying that is about to happen...NMRA will probably be putting the weight back on to the 4 valve, simply for what he ran in BG and not because anyone is whining. I promise. They knew for years what the potential of that combination was, and no one took advantage of it. Now that someone has, I am sure they will correct the problem.
I have recently learned, that just because everythign seems good, doesn't mean it really is.... There was a time this year, that i did not know anyone was asking for weight breaks. 4 Valve and Carb included. I let all the arguments go and paid no attention to them. Boy did I learn, that if no one debates that argument, it will change for the cryers benefit. Now it is time debate, before we have to change something, again, that should have never been messed with.
You guys, can take this however you want..you all know the truth, just accept it and quit covering it up.

[Ian Mullane]

it will change for the cryers benefit.
I love how the words cryers or whiners are always thrown out there to demean one sides argument or make it look as though that side is resorting to begging yet both sides always do it. It's politics man, we would all be fools to let these debates go by without portraying our views in hopes of convincing the right people to sway the rules in our favor. Your doing it right now Gene but I wouldn't say your crying. More like lookin out for your investment.

Now it is time debate, .
I agree

Oh yeah, .4-.5 quicker in Shawns car is a little much, give him some credit. The .36 he ran in BG was a pretty clean pass.


Back to the debate...:)

[Shawn Johnson]

Hey Gene..... Don't bring me into this...

I got piled on enough for one off season by the FS guys ... don't add me to PS arguments.....:(

[MP-Mike]

I got news for you...I don't have to pound my chest. But it does sound like you want your back patted. I just let you know what I have put into my program, and I think everyone else should also. Now with the results I have accomplished, nevermind.....

Pat on the Back?? Where is it that you see me out there saying "Look at me! I spent $XX,XXX.xx on this and that! If my customers and/or sponsored cars want to do that, it is their decision. Do I like seeing that, probably as much as your engine builder does.


Don't tell me Blah, Blah, Blah...

I typed out a big huge Bob C.:D type of reply, but decided not to post it. Why?? I don't need to explain myself. The performance of my engines, do that for me.

Gene, I consider you a friend. If you ever needed help on something, I would lend a hand. But, to go out there and say that I have or have not done this or that is utter bull$hit, and I tend to take that a bit personal.

This seems to somewhat mirror what was being said in the F/S forum and I can understand why some people got bent out of shape. Whether I agree or disagree with what was said, that is for me to know. You did what needed to be done to win your Championship. We did the same for Shawn and we will do the same for Ken. As long as the rules are there to allow mods to play, rest assured, we will be there with something.

Mike

[KenB]

One would tend to think they know all there is to know about the pushrod car...Not true. Not even close, just ask them. They are always learning and they are always improving, and that's what will happen to the 4 valve over time also.

Ok, you just said not everything is known about a pushrod car and that there is still more there. And then you say that it will be the same with the 4V. So both combos will continue to progress. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe your arguement is the 4V still has alot to pick up while the pushrods don't. We don't know that yet. I remember talking to you about it at some point this year and you thought the 4V couldn't compete at all.



Ken, you just put this engine in the car, I have had tolerance for all the BS, but you also told me that you couldn't get the car no where near the minimum weight for the 2 Valve stuff last year. So I know about how much weight can be pulled.

Really? you know? Did you know that the 2V I was running had an iron block? Did you know that the P-51 intake I was running was extremely heavy? The car lost a nice chunk of weight when I went to the 4V. The heads are heavier but the block and intake made the difference.


If you have ran over a 100 passes all together in 3 years, I would be suprised. I have just reached a 100 passes this year alone and I know you aint out every weekend like I am. And I log every pass.


I glad you know what I'm up to.

You may have missed:

Each year their have been signifcant changes due to alot of testing each year. Doesn't sound "overnight" to me. Granted, I don't make alot of races but I do ALOT of testing. Not nearly as much this year but in 03 and 04 I had 100-140 passes each year.

I haven't been out alot this year like I said, but in 2003-2004 I was out every weekend the local tracks were open. Sometimes twice a week.

You have been to less races in 3 years, than we had total this year alone. I like you, but don't feed me full of crap, I am not stupid.

Who said you were stupid? And where did I say I went to alot of races? By my count I've been to 8 in the last 3 years.


I watched you run in Columbus, and I heard how everything was going...I know you had some problems..But that doesn't contribute to what I saw. You didn't act like you had been in that car very much at all.

I hadn't been in it alot this year like I said. I was also running a line lock and 2 step for the first time in the car at Columbus. But you probably didn't know that either.



Now for all the crying that is about to happen...NMRA will probably be putting the weight back on to the 4 valve, simply for what he ran in BG and not because anyone is whining. I promise. They knew for years what the potential of that combination was, and no one took advantage of it. Now that someone has, I am sure they will correct the problem.
I have recently learned, that just because everythign seems good, doesn't mean it really is.... There was a time this year, that i did not know anyone was asking for weight breaks. 4 Valve and Carb included. I let all the arguments go and paid no attention to them. Boy did I learn, that if no one debates that argument, it will change for the cryers benefit. Now it is time debate, before we have to change something, again, that should have never been messed with.
You guys, can take this however you want..you all know the truth, just accept it and quit covering it up.

To set the record straight, I'm not complaining or trying to cover up. YOU started this thread and said, without any facts, that my .29 "Must have been NMRA legal or at least real close". I posted to correct you. The car weighed in at approximately 2790 (130 lbs light from where I usually run it) and I was running some new fuel that worked incredibly well. Based on what I picked up with it, the car should have been even faster. I also drive my car for fun, not every pass I make is with P/S in mind.

I never put in a 4V rule change and I don't see any reason to this off-season. NMRA will do what they want and we will adapt. I've always had confidence in the combo.

I have no problem with you Gene but you seem to think we are over here with some master plan to BS our way to the top. I brought a car out that fit the rules and did well. I didn't make the rules and I never asked for the rules to be changed for this combo so I don't see what I did to piss you off.

[Gene Hindman]

First of all, I like everyone of you guys, but I am not going to walk on egg shells to defend what i know is right from wrong. If you get angry with my responses, then tuff $hit, that's just how I see it.
I love how the words cryers or whiners are always thrown out there to demean one sides argument or make it look as though that side is resorting to begging yet both sides always do it. Just call it like I see it, like I said earlier, I am tired of sugar coating the problems to keep from stepping on toes.
Hey Gene..... Don't bring me into this...

I got piled on enough for one off season by the FS guys ... don't add me to PS arguments.....:(
Your name got brought into this by your engine builder, don't blame me.
Gene, I consider you a friend. If you ever needed help on something, I would lend a hand. But, to go out there and say that I have or have not done this or that is utter bull$hit, and I tend to take that a bit personal. First of all, this wasn't directed towards anything you posted, but rather John's post. Now, This is the first time you have built a P/S engine that is competitive...So is it "Utter Bull$hit" what I said? Taking it personal is how I sent the message to be when I was derived at "Pounding my chest". I have spent alot of money over the years, I expect you and everyone else to also if they want to keep up. Don't expect the rules to fit what you build, but rather build until you fit the rules. My combination was penalized this year, not any other combination. Don't expect to get the combo right on the first shot... No one is that good. Unless the weights are lowered to compensate. Just ask Rich Groh, how many things he changed to tried to get his combo where it is. What about Kuntz's engines out there, Let's not forget about the Bennett Engine either, and thus I remind you of the Steve Petty Engine. Many have tried and only a few have over come the adversity. To be handed competitiveness is BS, not just with Modulars either, That goes for Carbs also.
I typed out a big huge Bob C. type of reply, but decided not to post it. Why?? I don't need to explain myself. The performance of my engines, do that for me. I think that's what I did also. I hope you weren't trying to insinuate that I wasn't.
Ken, let me refresh you on what you said just a few post earlier to what Steve Moberly has said.
The only real difference is the RPM. Same weight as the 2V (within 50lbs) and there are no associated mechanical changes except the engine itself. And then you post this Really? you know? Did you know that the 2V I was running had an iron block? Did you know that the P-51 intake I was running was extremely heavy? The car lost a nice chunk of weight when I went to the 4V. The heads are heavier but the block and intake made the difference. Like I said before, Don't think I don't remember alot about what people say and do. You can probably ask anyone in the class about it. I can usually tell you their numbers from a few races back also.
Who said you were stupid? And where did I say I went to alot of races? By my count I've been to 8 in the last 3 years.And what I said was that you have been to less than the amoutn we had this year alone (9 races). And to think you have told me one thing and expect me not remember, is calling me stupid/ignorant. I wont take it easily.
I hadn't been in it alot this year like I said. I was also running a line lock and 2 step for the first time in the car at Columbus. But you probably didn't know that either. Well, since I said I wasn't going to sugar coat it....I will say that this is not what i am referring to with your driving abilities, if you have a recordable tach...play it slow motion (1/3 or 1/2 speed) watch the rpm flash between gear shifts. Knowing the differences in how I can drive and how I do drive sometimes, I know that there is a good amount to gain when that is closer to being perfected. Although video is the best way to see it, I have my friends tell me when I aint doing it good enough and that makes me work on it harder. That's how I know how much is left.
YOU started this thread and said, without any facts, that my .29 "Must have been NMRA legal or at least real close". I posted to correct you. I didn't post any false information did I? I started this thread you are right, and I only pointed out what I know you have told me and what is written below your signature. Why would you post what the car runs in your signature, while also saying you're the first P/S Modular in the 10's and that you also have your car number right above it also, maybe you were just trying to mislead the public. To categorize what you have done with what you are would be a little deceatful if it was incorrect information (not in NMRA trim) right?
It would kinda be like me putting in my signature that I had been 10.26 @ 131mph. Wouldn't you expect that to be NMRA legal? Surely you wouldn't think I would come home and pull all the weight and add some fuel that could contaminate the tank that I am using legal spec fuel in? No, your right. I would be insinuating that I had been that fast in legal trim. That's just the way people read things.

[KenB]

And what I said was that you have been to less than the amoutn we had this year alone (9 races). And to think you have told me one thing and expect me not remember, is calling me stupid/ignorant.

I agree with you. I don't know where I told you something and expected you not to remember.


Well, since I said I wasn't going to sugar coat it....I will say that this is not what i am referring to with your driving abilities, if you have a recordable tach...play it slow motion (1/3 or 1/2 speed) watch the rpm flash between gear shifts. Knowing the differences in how I can drive and how I do drive sometimes, I know that there is a good amount to gain when that is closer to being perfected. Although video is the best way to see it, I have my friends tell me when I aint doing it good enough and that makes me work on it harder. That's how I know how much is left.


Again, I don't disagree. That's what happens when your clutch is not work. I had no confidence in it (and that proved to be a good thing). I had to really take it easy till I figured that out. That's why the car picked up .3 once we got that straight. I don't claim to be the best driver in the world, but I think I did ok at BG once the clutch was working.


I didn't post any false information did I? I started this thread you are right, and I only pointed out what I know you have told me and what is written below your signature. Why would you post what the car runs in your signature, while also saying you're the first P/S Modular in the 10's and that you also have your car number right above it also, maybe you were just trying to mislead the public. To categorize what you have done with what you are would be a little deceatful if it was incorrect information (not in NMRA trim) right?


I would say that because it's true. The car was the first in the 10's and the car has run 10.29. I guess the difference is how I see it. My car is my car, regardless of what class I run. I can see how you are seeing it, but I don't see it that way. I'm interested in going as fast as possible regardless of rules. When I'm at the NMRA races, I'll run NMRA legal. Other times, I may choose to ignore the rules while testing just to have fun.



It would kinda be like me putting in my signature that I had been 10.26 @ 131mph. Wouldn't you expect that to be NMRA legal? Surely you wouldn't think I would come home and pull all the weight and add some fuel that could contaminate the tank that I am using legal spec fuel in? No, your right. I would be insinuating that I had been that fast in legal trim. That's just the way people read things.

When Rich ran 9's last year no one was bitching. Everyone assumed it wasn't NMRA legal and it wasn't. As far as contaminating my fuel system, I'm pulling it all apart this winter anyway so that's not a concern. You're not the first to bring up the signature thing. I guess more people see it your way than mine. I guess the real point is I'm not really concerned about what people think. But I was concerned about what you were implying. Maybe if you would have asked me if it were legal rather than just assume it was, this thread would have been a bit different.

Don't forget the fact that not many 4v's have gone as fast as mine in 4.6L trim period, so I'm also trying to be one of the fastest 4VNA cars regardless of rules or class racing.

I also updated my sig on this board as to not cause any more confusion.

[Gene Hindman]

When Rich ran 9's last year no one was bitching. Everyone assumed it wasn't NMRA legal and it wasn't. .
Actuallly, everyone knew Rich had a dual purpose car that ran in 2 different classes last year. Not anywhere near the same. Plus Rich doesn't get on here and have a signature. I guess the real point is I'm not really concerned about what people think. .
Well, you keep saying that.. Now we just know, we are both playing on the same ground. . But I was concerned about what you were implying. .Don't blame me for implying it, I already told you that you implied it, when you posted that it has gone that fast, and I told you also that saying it the way you did, made people believe it was in Trim. Don't blame me. It's your signature, I only pointed it out.
. Maybe if you would have asked me if it were legal rather than just assume it was, this thread would have been a bit different.
.No need in asking, it's out there for the world to see and made to believe that it is in Trim. Like I said, if I put some numbers in my signature, everyone would think that it would legal trim right?

[Perky]

I think we can pick up even more with some seat time and suspension tuning.



This was posted in another post Ken and my reasoning for figuring that there is more left in this car... I just used the words that you provided us.. I think it's some awesome runs.. congrats...

[KenB]

This was posted in another post Ken and my reasoning for figuring that there is more left in this car... I just used the words that you provided us.. I think it's some awesome runs.. congrats...

I'm not denying there is more in it, but there is more in everyone's car.


Gene,

If you put a time in your sig that was .2 faster than you have ever run, I would actually think that you changed something to gain .2 Could be a legal change, or just a change you made for the fun of it. Remember when this was fun?

Ken

[Gene Hindman]

Gene,

If you put a time in your sig that was .2 faster than you have ever run, I would actually think that you changed something to gain .2 . Right, maybe installed a Modular Engine right? My Combination isn't new and for me to get .2 out of it would impossible, but seeing that you have improved about a .4-.5 improvement on each race this year, then yes, we would figure that you have figured it out. It fits right inline with the leaps and bounds.
Remember when this was fun?

Ken
Ya, but it is so vague I can hardly remember. I think it was somewhere around the time, that it cost about 5-6K in a whole car and we could drive them there. The Entry fees were alot lower and so was the gas prices and Motels, But the main thing I remember is that the purse is still the same and has never increased either. Every class in FFW pays altleast $1000 to win except S/S and they probably will this coming season.

[vrtical]

If they are gonna put weight back on, can I get a rule change to allow a carb on a modular :eek:

[Teddy]

If they are gonna put weight back on, can I get a rule change to allow a carb on a modular :eek:
I'm sure you could submit a rules proposal, doubt it would get through, but....

[Perky]

If they are gonna put weight back on, can I get a rule change to allow a carb on a modular :eek:

How about no carbs and then we don't have that problem anymore!! sorry Brad...

[Teddy]

How about no carbs and then we don't have that problem anymore!! sorry Brad...
I'll 2nd that, sorry to the carb guys:)

[Gene Hindman]

How about no carbs and then we don't have that problem anymore!! sorry Brad...
I'll 3rd that one too. But sorry Brad, Ron and Amy. I'd race the Modulars at 200 less before I like racing the carbs.

[vrtical]

I'll 3rd that one too. But sorry Brad, Ron and Amy. I'd race the Modulars at 200 less before I like racing the carbs.

I find this a bit confusing, but I will take the endorsement for running at 2900.

[Shawn Johnson]

if you have a recordable tach...play it slow motion (1/3 or 1/2 speed) watch the rpm flash between gear shifts. Knowing the differences in how I can drive and how I do drive sometimes, I know that there is a good amount to gain when that is closer to being perfected. Although video is the best way to see it, That's how I know how much is left.

This is one truuuue statement.
I have heard this before….. wait I said that..
I must have stated it wrong though because when I said it I was told I sound like a “know it all”:rolleyes:

Oh well I’ve been called worse I’m sure…:D

I don’t know it all but I do know that this is true…

This also has a lot to do with the clutch some are using….

I’m sorry Teddy… but I don’t know how you can shift that car with that clutch set up like that:eek: …it took almost 1.5 tenths out of my car from the set up I was using …. You might be use to it but wow it is a big difference in shifting time for me….. Thanks for the use of it though…I’ll see you at the awards show…Oh ya send me your address so I can send it back to you…
Thanks Again..

Shawn

[JWilson]

I'll 2nd that, sorry to the carb guys:)
Anybody have a computer and a wire harness for sale???LOL:D

[Jason Reiss]

Man, you guys yap at each other worse than the DR crowd...:D

[Ranger50]

Man, you guys yap at each other worse than the DR crowd...:D

We do not.... :D;)

[DARRIN P/S 5006]

What do your EFI guys against Carb P/S cars?...That EFI stuff cost to much..

[Gene Hindman]

Boy did I forget about all those carb cars, but they are going to let us know about it now right? Actually, about half the field in Joliet and Bg were carb cars.
Shawn...I expected to get slammed over that statement also. It is a harsh way to tell someone how it really is. But that is also why I stated up front, that I wasn't going to sugar coat it either. Sugar coating things is what is wrong with this world now a days... Do I look fat in these cloths???? Nope, the cloths don't have anything to do with it. hehehe, I'm not sorry for telling it how it is, I just hope that no one gets too mad about it when the thruth is stated.
Anybody have a computer and a wire harness for sale???LOL Man I did forget about all you guys with the carbs, I just figure most people were using the EFI, but now I have been straightened out.

[Teddy]

I’m sorry Teddy… but I don’t know how you can shift that car with that clutch set up like that:eek: …it took almost 1.5 tenths out of my car from the set up I was using …. You might be use to it but wow it is a big difference in shifting time for me….. Thanks for the use of it though…I’ll see you at the awards show…Oh ya send me your address so I can send it back to you…
Thanks Again..

Shawn
That's not the clutch I'm using! I just had an extra that Rob had sent me. Was it too aggresive for you??

[Shawn Johnson]

That's not the clutch I'm using! I just had an extra that Rob had sent me. Was it too aggresive for you??


Too aggressive and way to long of a peddle..

The set up I had made ... the peddle only moves about 1" for completed disengagement. This clutch peddle had to move all the way to the floor….

I tried that at the beginning of the season and had the same problem as in BG..


Shawn

[Z-MAN]

[QUOTE=Gene Hindman]Boy did I forget about all those carb cars, :eek: :eek: :eek:

We love you to Gene. HEHEHE :)

[Ed Curtis]

<snip> now I have been straightened out.

I seriously doubt it... :D

Ed

[CarlosSobrino]

Sorry for my .02 cents, but, it seems the modular argument from the F/S board is here just flipped around. The F/S pushrods dont need help but the P/S mods do? Hmmmmmm. I'm sure I didnt say that right, but ya'll know what I mean. I have to agree with Gene on this.

[Ian Mullane]

Sorry for my .02 cents, but, it seems the modular argument from the F/S board is here just flipped around. The F/S pushrods dont need help but the P/S mods do? Hmmmmmm. I'm sure I didnt say that right, but ya'll know what I mean. I have to agree with Gene on this.

Not asking for help. Just asking to be left alone. Do I appear biased:confused: ;) :D

[CarlosSobrino]

Couldnt answer that Ian, I kinda skipped over your posts and pretty much read the P/S guys ones.

[GTGirl74]

I'll 2nd that, sorry to the carb guys:)
Don't forget & girls lol