2006 rules discussion

[Shawn Johnson]

Can someone move all the rules post from Johns thread to here ...?

[KenCook]

Easy question before I get into the long post about rule proposals.

Should the rest of the pushrods go another year in perfecting their combos with the same rules to run ET's in the 11.5 range while more mods catch up to the champ next year?
You just keep mentioning that the slower push rods are not maxed out.
Do you really think a maxed out PR will run better that 11.5 with the current rules?
I dont really count Jamie in the mix because he only ran 3 events.
It does not really matter that you were the only mod in the 11.3's
That makes you the yard stick.

I got more to type but dinner is rdy. :D

Congrats again on a great year Shawn.
You guys really kicked ass.

[Ian Mullane]

What does running only 3 events matter. Heck, he may have gone faster with more track time. Had Jamie run the full season the points race would have been shaken up quite a bit.

I, for one, do believe a pushrod car could run better than 11.5's under the current rules. Jonothan could have ran 11.5's in Columbus if he hadn't deep staged in the final round adn the air wasn't very good there. I believe Denny's car is more than capable given enough testing and seat time. Heck he ran 118 mph at Atco in 4000'DA.

[Ranger50]

I'm with Ian, but with one caveat/question...

Can anyone in the pushrod camp better the current performance benchmark set by Shawn?

My gut reaction, no. Yes with some pushrod-specific rules changes. Do i have the crystal ball for changes, no way in hell! Or I would already be building it!!!! :D :eek: :cool:

Brian

[Shawn Johnson]

Well if I am the ruler for the Mods because I'm the fastest mod running then the ruler is 40s.. in normal track conditions we run 40s...

We ran 30s only in BG.
We never ran them in testing or at any other event.
So now we know with perfect air and track we can run 30s..

Jamie has to be the ruler for the 5.0L because he is the fastest 5.0L running.
Jamie ran 50s this year and 50s last year....

So if we stop there it looks like the mods are 1 tenth faster... Top runner to top runner..
Well we cann't stop there we need to know what Jamie is running as far as rules...
Is he all out to the rules?
Has he tested all clutches, gears, transmissions, tire size, engine tuners, etc..?
These answer must be addressed before we can say the 5.0L needs help....

I think the 5.0Ls need to help themselves first .... more testing and try different things...

We keep trying everything out there...

Should the rules stay the same for one more season to give the 5.0L time to try more struff.... That is a YES...


If the mods have so much more of advantage then the 5.0L then why aren't all the mod cars running what we are?
Maybe the reason is we just have a great team program put together....!

If our team didn't run this year what would you guys be saying then??

Shawn

[ponie1992]

i believe shawn has made some good points. leave the rules alone and see what happens. this class definitely doesn't need to get any faster. if any changes are to be made then maybe just play with weight. but as far as engine mods, leave them alone. i think jamie could run a little quicker but not much. i think he is pretty much maxed out. i could be wrong but that's just my .02.

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

First of all I am a pushrod man and second I do not like to get involved with these discussions. Its heads up racing and may the fastest car win.

If your pushrod can not cut it then invest in a mod car.

As per Jamie whos name comes up when it comes to pushrod cars, does anyone know if he is within the NMRA rules. Thats where you need to start before you start changing the rules.

Shawn congratulations on a great season, hard work and dedication pays off.

[Fast Orange]

Shawns Quote from the other post..... (2 step)

See its things like this that add up..
"If the 5.0L cars leave harder without one and runs a better ET then don't use it.. This is heads up not bracket racing... Your not the only one who has made that statement about the two step"..

I'll give you that Shawn, it does help ET to some degree but very little.
This might sound bad and I really don't mean for it to. If someone was running within a 1/2 tenth of you, you'd be using a 2-step.

I made 7 passes in BG and my reaction times were all between .126 and .164 without deep staging. Granted that's nothing to write home about, but in our "Entry Level Class" it'll get the job done.

[Fast Orange]

Easy question before I get into the long post about rule proposals.

Should the rest of the pushrods go another year in perfecting their combos with the same rules to run ET's in the 11.5 range while more mods catch up to the champ next year?
You just keep mentioning that the slower push rods are not maxed out.
Do you really think a maxed out PR will run better that 11.5 with the current rules?

This is the way I feal also Ken...

[Fast Orange]

Well if I am the ruler for the Mods because I'm the fastest mod running then the ruler is 40s.. in normal track conditions we run 40s...

We ran 30s only in BG.
We never ran them in testing or at any other event.
So now we know with perfect air and track we can run 30s..

Jamie has to be the ruler for the 5.0L because he is the fastest 5.0L running.
Jamie ran 50s this year and 50s last year....

So if we stop there it looks like the mods are 1 tenth faster... Top runner to top runner..

Shawn

Jamie ran 50's in the same air you ran 30's in... He also ran 50's last year in the same air you went 121mph in, so don't try to say his car allways runs 50's.

It's an obvious 2 tenths.

I'm sure when you figure out how to stop bogging your car at 7000 rpm :eek: , you'll run consistant 30's if not faster.

[Fast Orange]

If the mods have so much more of advantage then the 5.0L then why aren't all the mod cars running what we are?
Maybe the reason is we just have a great team program put together....!

Shawn

I agree, I can't argue with that...:)

[KenCook]

WTF?
No pushrod can cut it vs the top mod.
Rules are in place for different combos.
The name of the game is to make the them even. If not there will be 6 mods next year and thats it.

If your pushrod can not cut it then invest in a mod car.


edit
I removed my comments about Jamie.
I do not want anyone to think I said he was not legal.


As per Jamie whos name comes up when it comes to pushrod cars, does anyone know if he is within the NMRA rules. Thats where you need to start before you start changing the rules.



Of course you would say that Shawn. I wouldn't expect anything else. :D

Should the rules stay the same for one more season to give the 5.0L time to try more struff.... That is a YES...


It does not matter how many mods are running 11.3's, its that they can run 11.3's...
I'm sure a few more will be next year. Rumor has it that Ryan can run it.

And if you did not run this year, then the rules would have appeared to be pretty even.
But..... you did and ran 30's

I gotta go change diapers:(
BRB :D


If the mods have so much more of advantage then the 5.0L then why aren't all the mod cars running what we are?
Maybe the reason is we just have a great team program put together....!

If our team didn't run this year what would you guys be saying then??

[KenB]

I think changing the rules based on Shawn's car is crazy. In fact, I think you need to throw the top driver from each combo out. It doesn't matter what the top guy does, it matters what the average guy does with the combo. And if you take Jamie and Shawn out of the mix, the class if very tight. I wouldn't mess with it.

[Shawn Johnson]

Jamie ran 50's in the same air you ran 30's in... He also ran 50's last year in the same air you went 121mph in, so don't try to say his car allways runs 50's.

It's an obvious 2 tenths.

I'm sure when you figure out how to stop bogging your car at 7000 rpm :eek: , you'll run consistant 30's if not faster.


Last year at BG when we ran the 121mph it was because we change the rear gear to a 430 at the track.. We ran our normal gear and couldn't out do the 41 we ran at Michigan so we tried the 430 and it ran a better MPH but it slowed down the ET...


Jamie ran 50s in Florida in worse air then BG... I don't think he was at his top at BG but he still ran in the 50s...

There might be more in my combo but I know there is more in the 5.0Ls.
It’s not right for people to ask for the NMRA to give them 2 tenths so they don't have to work to find it... The reason I say that is because the 5.0L ran 50s last year and 50s this year with the changes given already...
I'm not bragging but it doesn't seam to be that any 5.0L team put in the effort to get every last ET out of their combo like we did..
Jamie is still the fastest 5.0L and I know he has had some bad luck this year so I can only assume that he didn't have a lot of money or track time to put into his combo this year...
Jonathan was competitive and by his own addition the car is still running the same two year old motor in it… plus if he didn’t deep stage at Columbus he would have ran a 50 and again that is with a two year old motor combo in not so good air….

And Ken there is no changing diapers here…

This is just a debate…

Where one side tries to convince they are right and the other does the same..

Everyone wants the rules to be made in their favor but we need them to be fair…
And yes I don’t think they need to change or at least no one has proven to me that they need to be changed… I know all the things we have done and spent to get to where we are… I don’t know what others have so here is the place to bring them out….
I will use one example: I said this before but we switched clutches at BG. The clutches were made by the same company and both are good pieces… The one we put in worked but it slowed the cars ET by over 1 tenth.. Its all those little things that add up and in this case has the 5.0L tried all clutch combos to see if another is better…

[Louis Sylvester Sr.]

Ken,
What I am saying, with the current rules in place and if they do not change for the 2006 season. Everyone needs to look at themself and if they feel a mod car is superior, then they may want to rethink the direction they are going. We will be running a pushrod next season and hope to be competitive, but if not that is the direction we choose.

[KenCook]

Why is it crazy? It's fact.
Rule makers look at the top et's from each combo.
Not avg's of the middle men.

Go ask George at FFW what he looks at.
I'm sure Thom and the boys do the same.
It would serve no purpose to throw out the top guys guys for each combo. It's them that you gauge the rules by.


My diaper comment was no joke or pun.
I really had to change her diapers.:eek: lol


I think changing the rules based on Shawn's car is crazy. In fact, I think you need to throw the top driver from each combo out. It doesn't matter what the top guy does, it matters what the average guy does with the combo. And if you take Jamie and Shawn out of the mix, the class if very tight. I wouldn't mess with it.


Louis,
If I was just starting out now to run this class there is no doubt I would sink my money into a mod.
Its just not possible for me to start over.
Me and Carlos have invested a good share of time into the trooper already.
It did not run any great pushrod numbers yet but we know it will be close soon enough.





Ken,
What I am saying, with the current rules in place and if they do not change for the 2006 season. Everyone needs to look at themself and if they feel a mod car is superior, then they may want to rethink the direction they are going. We will be running a pushrod next season and hope to be competitive, but if not that is the direction we choose.

[Bob Cosby]

NMRA has changed the rules mid-season based on the "top" modular car twice (2001 & 2004). It may not be the right thing to do, but I'd much prefer they adjust rules in the off-season instead. Anyway, some thoughts...

A pushrod has won one event in the last 2 seasons (this year, Reynolds).

A pushrod has qualified number 1 once in the last 2 seasons - and that was when I broke in the only qualifying attempt at the 2004 Maple Grove race (Jamie came close at Bradenton this year).

The quickest Mod car in 2004 went 11.41. The quickest pushrod car in 2004 went 11.57.

The only significant rule change for 2005 was in weights:
Modulars added 75 lbs.
Pushrods added 50 lbs.

The quickest Mod car in 2005 went 11.36. The quickest pushrod car in 2005 went 11.54.

The following is the average best ET for the 3(4) Modular's that competed in 2005:

Read: FL/GA/MI/PA/KC/IL/NJ/OH/BG

Shawn Average: 11.56/11.67/11.67/11.57/11.49/11.51/11.51/11.47/11.36 = 11.53

Jeff Average: 11.54/11.59/11.53/11.67/11.70/11.77/11.64/11.71/11.56 = 11.63

Carlos/Ryan Average: 11.59/11.78/11.68/0.00/0.00/11.95/11.85/0.00/11.60 = 11.74

Average: 11.63

NOTE: I used the best of Carlos/Ryan Cox when either both ran, or only 1 ran.

The following is the average for the best ET for the top 3 pushrods from each event that competed in 2005:

Read: FL/GA/MI/PA/KC/IL/NJ/OH/BG

Quickest 5.0: 11.56/11.69/11.66/11.75/11.66/11.81/11.71/11.66/11.55 = 11.67

2nd Quickest 5.0: 11.85/11.85/11.74/11.75/11.98/11.91/11.75/11.82/11.65 = 11.81

3rd Quickest 5.0: 0.00/12.05/0.00/11.86/0.00/11.92/11.85/0.00/11.93 = 11.92

Average: 11.8

Average difference = .17

NOTE 1: When the 3rd quickest 5.0 didn't go 12.0 or quicker, I left it off in order to keep the average ET from being artificially raised. This happened at Bradenton, Martin, KC, and Columbus.

NOTE 2: I didn't have access to the complete MI results (missing round 2 and 3 of eliminations - if someone ran quicker than what I have posted, let me know).

NOTE 3: Carlos needs to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you had the pushrod car at IL and NJ. If that is incorrect, then please let me know, as I used your numbers for the pushrod data.

Broken down by race, the quickest Mod vs 5.0 at each race:

FL: 11.54 vs 11.56 Difference = .02
GA: 11.59 vs 11.69 Difference = .10
MI: 11.53 vs 11.66 Difference = .13
PA: 11.57 vs 11.75 Difference = .18
KC: 11.49 vs 11.66 Difference = .17
IL: 11.51 vs 11.81 Difference = .30
NJ: 11.51 vs 11.71 Difference = .20
OH: 11.47 vs 11.66 Difference = .19
BG: 11.36 vs 11.55 Difference = .19

Based on the above, I would support rule changes that could reasonably be expected to either slow the modulars by a .1 to .15, or pick up the pushrods by .1 to 1.5.

Final note: If someone feels I have errored in my numbers, please give me a shout. Because of the crash Stangcrazy had a while back, I pulled all results from Hardcore 5.0.

[KenCook]

Bob
Carlos ran the Cobra @ Atco and the PR @ IL

[KenB]

Go ask George at FFW what he looks at.

Please let's not look to FFW for any advice when it comes to rules. Whatever they are doing over there is clearly not working.



I still think the rules should stay the same, BUT if they do change, the only changes should be made to the 5.0 cars. Meaning, give them something to make them a bit quicker, but don't try and slow the modulars down.

[KenCook]

I agree.
I dont think it's correct to slow the 4v combo down.
I'm thinking more of a few small changes to help out the PR & 2v's

Maybe leave the engine alone.
No P/S, Drop a little weight & Aftermarket K-Members to start.



I still think the rules should stay the same, BUT if they do change, the only changes should be made to the 5.0 cars. Meaning, give them something to make them a bit quicker, but don't try and slow the modulars down.

[Shawn Johnson]

Its interesting Bob that now that you don't race you support a rule change to help the push rod cars run better instead of making them work to find it...

One point.... and there is more..
I'm the only one who leaves without a two step because it makes my car ET better....
How many 5.0L have tried it?

For 2005 the 5.0L were also given more compression... who has bean able to take addvantage of this... and I don't mean just mill the heads down...

You need to run a different pistion and work with the tune to get all you can out of it... how many have you have tried different pistons (coated or un coated) to get more....?

Before there is to be a rule change there should be more mods running the same as us and the 5.0L need to prove they have used all the rules as they are... how can anyone say that it is the mods that have an advantage when we are the only ones running the numbers... Maybe its just our team?


Shawn

[Jon Clifton]

If someone is willing to help foot the majority of the bill I will be more than willing to demonstrate a maxed out push rod effort in factory stock. And yes I am being serious.

Shawn awesome job this year. Your group shows what dedication and testing can achieve.

P.S. it was an honor being able to help you with a couple first round wins this year on your way to a championship. :p

[vossperformance]

Just figured I would say hey to everyone. I have been checking the boards, but not posting. Looks like the same ol song and dance.:D


Kyle Voss

[Bob Cosby]

Its interesting Bob that now that you don't race you support a rule change to help the push rod cars run better instead of making them work to find it...
The pushrods don't work? Or they just don't work as hard as you?

I suppose my post is "interesting", in that I used factual, verifiable data to back up my opinions/conclusions/recommendations, vice implying that others are simply not working as hard.

I guess perhaps not racing this year allows me to see some of those trees in the forest. Fortunately, it will be hard to accuse me of having an agenda.

One would be most welcome to accuse me of hoping the class succeeds.

One point.... and there is more..
I'm the only one who leaves without a two step because it makes my car ET better....
How many 5.0L have tried it?
Maybe if you'd of worked harder at making the 2 step work, you'd of had more success?

For 2005 the 5.0L were also given more compression... who has bean able to take addvantage of this... and I don't mean just mill the heads down...You need to run a different pistion and work with the tune to get all you can out of it... how many have you have tried different pistons (coated or un coated) to get more....?
May I make a suggestion? Run the average 5.0 numbers from last year and compare them to this year, taking into consideration the weight break they were given after Columbus, and the off-season weight change.

Before there is to be a rule change there should be more mods running the same as us and the 5.0L need to prove they have used all the rules as they are...
How many more modulars do you need to see win? 2? 3? 10? What difference would that make in determing which combination might have a bit of an advantage?

I love modulars, but I want to see the class succeed more than I want to see a modular dominate said class.

how can anyone say that it is the mods that have an advantage when we are the only ones running the numbers... Maybe its just our team?

LOL. Very easy. See my numbers above. Also consider my 2004 season, and your eventual 2004 ET/MPH.

It might just be your team and the cash you've spent to get there. It might also be that the Mods have an advantage. I think we did in 2004, and I took advantage of it. As you likely remember, I then supported a weight adjustment to help the 5.0s at the beginning of this year (though those thread are now lost). Based on the data I posted above, I would support it again.

I understand perfectly that you want to do what you can in order to give yourself the best shot of winning next year. It's a natural reaction. But what is best for Shawn Johnson doesn't necessarily translate into what is best for the continued success of the class.

Better to get the rules adjusted on the off-season vice mid season. Having that happen kind of sucks - advantage or not.

Bob

[Jamie R.]

Here is a comparison for you guys. I have a 2001 Cobra that has a Bassani stainless catted x pipe, Bassani stainless catback, a predator with a custom tune on the dyno, and JLT pipe. This car made 300 hp to the rear wheels. My F/S car with a built short block, F/S spec heads, and whatever else you would put on a F/S 5 liter. This car has made 315 to the wheels with out a tune. When people ask me about the two cars the question I get asked most often is , " They let the 4 valves in your class??"!! The difference between a 5 liter and a 4 valve is night and day and most everybody else can see that. Fire away!!!!!!!!!!

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[Rey]

I have never made a huge deal about making the 2v cars or car run any better. I have in the past put in for a rule change. I would love to see a little help from the rules department. My car in the state of current rules will never be in the pack,plain and simple. I will be driving a 2v car next year wether or not it is the Delk car I don't know. But I would like to see some help. The weight is not an issue. The car just can't move with the rest of the field. Not to mention the traction is an issue because of the weight. There is no reason to slow a car down because the said car is performing better than the rest of the class within the rules. Maybe helping the class move a step closer to said car.

[KenCook]

Great point.
I think Bob put out a little more HP then that before Al went to work on his engine.


Here is a comparison for you guys. I have a 2001 Cobra that has a Bassani stainless catted x pipe, Bassani stainless catback, a predator with a custom tune on the dyno, and JLT pipe. This car made 300 hp to the rear wheels. My F/S car with a built short block, F/S spec heads, and whatever else you would put on a F/S 5 liter. This car has made 315 to the wheels with out a tune. When people ask me about the two cars the question I get asked most often is , " They let the 4 valves in your class??"!! The difference between a 5 liter and a 4 valve is night and day and most everybody else can see that. Fire away!!!!!!!!!!

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[KenB]

Here is a comparison for you guys. I have a 2001 Cobra that has a Bassani stainless catted x pipe, Bassani stainless catback, a predator with a custom tune on the dyno, and JLT pipe. This car made 300 hp to the rear wheels. My F/S car with a built short block, F/S spec heads, and whatever else you would put on a F/S 5 liter. This car has made 315 to the wheels with out a tune. When people ask me about the two cars the question I get asked most often is , " They let the 4 valves in your class??"!! The difference between a 5 liter and a 4 valve is night and day and most everybody else can see that. Fire away!!!!!!!!!!

Jamie R.
F/S 6500


No one is arguing that point. That's the reason the pushrod has the 250 lb. weight break.

I guess the question is, how much do you think a 5.0 can make totally maxed out?

Ken

[Bob Cosby]

I have no idea how much power Jamie is making. However, the top 5.0s were making 340-350 RWHP back in 2002. I am relatively certain nobody has gotten above that - at least not significantly.

It should also be considered that the 5.0s are 1000 rpm + short of the 4Vs in rpm potential. The real benefit here is that it allows 4Vs to take advantage of more gearing.

My LS1 buddies never did figure that one out. :)

Bob

[KenCook]

They can't make 390 RWHP and they cant shift at 7k:eek:

As per the dyno showdown in BG in 2002 I think Justin made 342 RWHP and Robin 339 RWHP back then.


No one is arguing that point. That's the reason the pushrod has the 250 lb. weight break.

I guess the question is, how much do you think a 5.0 can make totally maxed out?

Ken

[KenB]

They can't make 390 RWHP and they cant shift at 7k:eek:

As per the dyno showdown in BG in 2002 I think Justin made 342 RWHP and Robin 339 RWHP back then.

390? Let's not get carried away. So, way back in 2002, Justin made 342 rwhp. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that 350-360 rwhp is possible, maybe more.

That's not far behind what Shawn is making. So I think 250 lbs. is pretty damn close. I couldn't see more than another 50 lbs.

Ken

[Shawn Johnson]

The pushrods don't work? Or they just don't work as hard as you?

I suppose my post is "interesting", in that I used factual, verifiable data to back up my opinions/conclusions/recommendations, vice implying that others are simply not working as hard.

I guess perhaps not racing this year allows me to see some of those trees in the forest. Fortunately, it will be hard to accuse me of having an agenda.

One would be most welcome to accuse me of hoping the class succeeds.


Maybe if you'd of worked harder at making the 2 step work, you'd of had more success?


May I make a suggestion? Run the average 5.0 numbers from last year and compare them to this year, taking into consideration the weight break they were given after Columbus, and the off-season weight change.


How many more modulars do you need to see win? 2? 3? 10? What difference would that make in determing which combination might have a bit of an advantage?

I love modulars, but I want to see the class succeed more than I want to see a modular dominate said class.


LOL. Very easy. See my numbers above. Also consider my 2004 season, and your eventual 2004 ET/MPH.

It might just be your team and the cash you've spent to get there. It might also be that the Mods have an advantage. I think we did in 2004, and I took advantage of it. As you likely remember, I then supported a weight adjustment to help the 5.0s at the beginning of this year (though those thread are now lost). Based on the data I posted above, I would support it again.

I understand perfectly that you want to do what you can in order to give yourself the best shot of winning next year. It's a natural reaction. But what is best for Shawn Johnson doesn't necessarily translate into what is best for the continued success of the class.

Better to get the rules adjusted on the off-season vice mid season. Having that happen kind of sucks - advantage or not.

Bob

That was a nice long post as usual…:)
But with all your data and numbers and all that.. you are still assuming that the 5.0L have no more room to grow, that they are to the wall, that they have no other ideas to try etc..
What I’m saying is prove it to me…
All the facts you stated are just numbers….
Has the fastest 5.0L done everything to his combo the rules allow, has he tried all there is to try???!!!
Can you answer that and if not then how can you say they need help to go faster??

And I am surprised at you about the two step deal….. how did that come from someone who told me that’s why these guys are not running faster….
Your statement about me not making the two step work better doesn’t answer the question I asked … has the 5.0L guys tried not using it???
How about this ….. using a two step takes 1 tenth off my car…. I’ll use it next season and then we will all be even….. I will be happy to …it will make the car that more consistent…..

Shawn

[Shawn Johnson]

390? Let's not get carried away. So, way back in 2002, Justin made 342 rwhp. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that 350-360 rwhp is possible, maybe more.

That's not far behind what Shawn is making. So I think 250 lbs. is pretty damn close. I couldn't see more than another 50 lbs.

Ken


Well there is more to this story... If I remember right Justin also stated that that dyno number was low from when they tuned his car... I believe he said it was more like 350 that is where that 350 number keeps coming from...

Now that was before you guys could get more compression... So how much can you get now..

Plus when we talked with Jamie at Florida he just came from the dyno before the event and he said he was only making @335 and he ran what... a 54 I think.. so what would he have ran with 360 to the tires...

I think you guys need to pull your resources together and you would have one hell of a 5.0L project...


Shawn

[stangfireman]

To answer one question, I tried the two step for 3 races before I figured out I'm too old to release the button. LOL But during Fla. Ga. and Ohio, I never used the two step during eliminations. I was told many times to launch higher then what I was. Trust me, I tried it, with my E7 combo and kept blowing the tires off. Was my chassis to blame? Who knows. But I think the car worked well launching at 3400. :)
But I did install a two step that worked off the clutch pedal. After that, I never tried it again without.
As for rule changes, I don't want to get into it. I didn't race this year, so I really don't have a say, in my opinion.
We've tossed around the idea of coming back next year, but I'm not holding my breath. Seen a different class away from the NMRA that looks very appealing. But it all comes down to funds.
I'd throw together a maxed out E7 combo if I had the cash. Do I think it will run 11.30's? Not on your life. LOL But I like doing something different.
My max hp when I ran was 287. The 2V made more then that and I weighed more. My car liked 3000lbs. Lowest I had it was 2945 and I think my base weight was 2850 or 2900 if I remember correctly. Getting old and forgetful. :)
Only change I might like to see is long tube headers all around. And maybe an AOD weight break.
I was told the weight break went away after Rich won the championship. But I've yet to get an answer as to how many races he won that year. Sure haven't seen a competitive AOD since.
Ok, that's enough from me :D

[Shawn Johnson]

To answer one question, I tried the two step for 3 races before I figured out I'm too old to release the button. LOL But during Fla. Ga. and Ohio, I never used the two step during eliminations. I was told many times to launch higher then what I was. Trust me, I tried it, with my E7 combo and kept blowing the tires off. Was my chassis to blame? Who knows. But I think the car worked well launching at 3400. :)
But I did install a two step that worked off the clutch pedal. After that, I never tried it again without.
As for rule changes, I don't want to get into it. I didn't race this year, so I really don't have a say, in my opinion.
We've tossed around the idea of coming back next year, but I'm not holding my breath. Seen a different class away from the NMRA that looks very appealing. But it all comes down to funds.
I'd throw together a maxed out E7 combo if I had the cash. Do I think it will run 11.30's? Not on your life. LOL But I like doing something different.
My max hp when I ran was 287. The 2V made more then that and I weighed more. My car liked 3000lbs. Lowest I had it was 2945 and I think my base weight was 2850 or 2900 if I remember correctly. Getting old and forgetful. :)
Only change I might like to see is long tube headers all around. And maybe an AOD weight break.
I was told the weight break went away after Rich won the championship. But I've yet to get an answer as to how many races he won that year. Sure haven't seen a competitive AOD since.
Ok, that's enough from me :D


As far as the AOD rule that is what Rich was trying to address at BG...
He put the stick back in and ran that good number to show that the auto was slowing him down...
Now his motor came up a couple of small numbers to high but I do think he proved his point...

Do you feel that your car runs a better ET with the two step??
I think what I read was that when you didn't use it spun the tires... Well in florida we all had that problem...
But if you could have got it told hold traction would it have help not to use the two step??

Shawn

[Bob Cosby]

That was a nice long post as usual…:)
LOL. Did you expect anything less? :D

But with all your data and numbers and all that.. you are still assuming that the 5.0L have no more room to grow, that they are to the wall, that they have no other ideas to try etc..
Yes, but at least I have data and numbers and all that. Based on your previous posts, you have assumptions, opinions, and little else.

If you read through what I said again, you will not find anywhere that I implied that the 5.0L had no more room to go. However, if you wish to go down that route, we can.

Who's to say that you don't have more room to grow? Who's to say that you are to the wall, and have no other ideas to try?

What I’m saying is prove it to me…
I provided data to back up my point. You have provided....what? I provided objective, verifiable reasoning to back up my point. What did you provide other than assumptions and opinions?

Please - if I've missed something, point it out. But like I said back in 2001, 2002, and even 2003: The numbers are there for all to see. I'm only providing them.

All the facts you stated are just numbers….
Yes, and the point is that they are indeed facts vice assumptions.

Has the fastest 5.0L done everything to his combo the rules allow, has he tried all there is to try???!!!
I don't know, why don't you tell me? While you're at it, have you done EVERYTHING to your combo the rules allow? Have you tried all there is to try? Are you saying you're done going faster?

Can you answer that and if not then how can you say they need help to go faster??
I answered above.

And I am surprised at you about the two step deal….. how did that come from someone who told me that’s why these guys are not running faster….
Huh? I said I didn't want to use the SCT "two step" because I didn't think it would go faster. I also said that I was very comfortable with my launch technique (which you seem to emulate very well).

I don't think the 2 step is slowing them down. Could it be? Sure - but I have no evidence. I do believe the SCT "two step" doesn't work for our cars.

Your statement about me not making the two step work better doesn’t answer the question I asked … has the 5.0L guys tried not using it???

Couldn't tell you. That said, I'd be willing to bet that over the years, Justin, Mike, Jamie, Robin, and others have tried a great many things that even you haven't done, and if doing something as simple as not pushing a button made them go faster, common sense says they would have done it.

How about this ….. using a two step takes 1 tenth off my car….
The SCT "two step", or a real one? And you're implication here is that simply not using a two step is going to get Jamie into the 11.4s and Jonathan into the 11.5s?

I'll pass that along to them. I have little doubt they will be quite thankful.

I’ll use it next season and then we will all be even….. I will be happy to …it will make the car that more consistent…..
LOL. Ok.
Well there is more to this story... If I remember right Justin also stated that that dyno number was low from when they tuned his car... I believe he said it was more like 350 that is where that 350 number keeps coming from...
Seems I remember he was right around 350 also.

Now that was before you guys could get more compression... So how much can you get now..
Don't know. How much more can you get if your combo had another two years of development behind it? Perhaps if you tell everybody that bit of information, they will tell you how much they can get now.

Plus when we talked with Jamie at Florida he just came from the dyno before the event and he said he was only making @335 and he ran what... a 54 I think.. so what would he have ran with 360 to the tires...
What would Rudolph have done without his red nose? What would I have done if I had kept my car, made no changes, and ran 11.4s to 11.5s from the get go this year?

The point is that shoulda/coulda/woulda isn't relavent, in my opinion.

I think you guys need to pull your resources together and you would have one hell of a 5.0L project...
Perhaps you should build a 5.0L project just to prove how it is done?

Finally, and just like early years, I don't do "potential". That is consistent from when I was argueing for changes to help Modulars, and now when I believe there should minor adjustments to help pushrods.

Bob

[Ian Mullane]

I have no idea how much power Jamie is making. However, the top 5.0s were making 340-350 RWHP back in 2002. I am relatively certain nobody has gotten above that - at least not significantly.

It should also be considered that the 5.0s are 1000 rpm + short of the 4Vs in rpm potential. The real benefit here is that it allows 4Vs to take advantage of more gearing.

My LS1 buddies never did figure that one out. :)

Bob

Why have they not exceded the power Justin made in 2002? The rules have loosened up quite a bit since then.

Did someone forget to tell Denny that pushrods cant make power past 6000 rpm? He ran 118 mph with allota gear. I'd still like to hear from him either way on this topic as I believe while he wasn't the quickest he was pushing the rules envelope more than others this season.

One other thing to consider is that nearly everyone that was close to Shawn would deepstage against him hoping to cut a good light and stay ahead. We all know this can easily add as much as a 1/10th to your e.t. so the average #'s Bob posted are a bit skewed. While they are factual there is more to the story.

All I know is this season I found out how dedicated Shawn and Mike and John are to winning. I've worked with other peole in this class before and even ran a season or two myself. I honestly do not believe anyone has worked as hard or spent as much time and money as Shawn has on his entire program so until they do I don't feel its fair to adjust the rules to bring others in line with what he has accomplished.

I'm sure Jeff and Carlos and Ryan loved seeing that 36 in BG.:rolleyes: They are the ones that will be affected most by any changes. I'd like to hear their concerns as well.

[KenCook]

Loosened up quite a bit? What, 58cc to 52cc?
What's that worth? Since you guys are now experts on push rods and how far they can go. You tell us.

A few people said the Atco mph was bs. We can let Denny speak on that one.

Hard data was shown through out the season by me and now Bob.
It's not BS, It's fact.

The work harder BS line is getting old.
You spewed it last year and most of this year.
Lemme get my boots on.


Why have they not exceded the power Justin made in 2002? The rules have loosened up quite a bit since then.

Did someone forget to tell Denny that pushrods cant make power past 6000 rpm? He ran 118 mph with allota gear. I'd still like to hear from him either way on this topic as I believe while he wasn't the quickest he was pushing the rules envelope more than others this season.

One other thing to consider is that nearly everyone that was close to Shawn would deepstage against him hoping to cut a good light and stay ahead. We all know this can easily add as much as a 1/10th to your e.t. so the average #'s Bob posted are a bit skewed. While they are factual there is more to the story.

All I know is this season I found out how dedicated Shawn and Mike and John are to winning. I've worked with other peole in this class before and even ran a season or two myself. I honestly do not believe anyone has worked as hard or spent as much time and money as Shawn has on his entire program so until they do I don't feel its fair to adjust the rules to bring others in line with what he has accomplished.

I'm sure Jeff and Carlos and Ryan loved seeing that 36 in BG.:rolleyes: They are the ones that will be affected most by any changes. I'd like to hear their concerns as well.

[KenB]

Loosened up quite a bit? What, 58cc to 52cc?
What's that worth?

I think that is precisely the point Shawn is trying to make. You should be telling us what it is worth because you should have tried it. Obviously you haven't. If you're not willing to take advantage of the current rules, how can you complain?

[Shawn Johnson]

I think that is precisely the point Shawn is trying to make. You should be telling us what it is worth because you should have tried it. Obviously you haven't. If you're not willing to take advantage of the current rules, how can you complain?

This exactly my point..

With the head and the o deck rule change how much has it given the 5.0L guys.
Have you guys maxed out those changes this season... That is the first question I have....

[Shawn Johnson]

Yes, but at least I have data and numbers and all that. Based on your previous posts, you have assumptions, opinions, and little else.
Bob
Well yes I'm making assumptions and so are you but at least I'm also asking for more information...
I am assuming as well as asking has the 05 rule changes been maxed out...


Who's to say that you don't have more room to grow? Who's to say that you are to the wall, and have no other ideas to try?
Bob
I did not say I was to the wall but as far as how much more I can go I don't know yet...
But that leads me back to if the 5.0L haven't used all they have been given then they shouldn't get more...


I provided data to back up my point. You have provided....what? I provided objective, verifiable reasoning to back up my point. What did you provide other than assumptions and opinions?
Bob
Yes you and others have provided data showing that I and only I ran better then the top 5.0L... We all knew that... what we don't know is why!
Was it because my combination has an advantage with the rules the way they are or is it another reason...?
I believe we need to explore that there might be another reason before we can just say hey they need help..


I don't know, why don't you tell me? While you're at it, have you done EVERYTHING to your combo the rules allow? Have you tried all there is to try? Are you saying you're done going faster?
Bob
Yes we are to the wall as far as rules goes and the NMRA seen that for themselves... The NMRA has not seen for themselves as far as the 5.0Ls go.
As far as all there is to try.... there is always more intakes and parts like that out there I guess but there is nothing more then a couple of HP at best... The next is try every gear and clutch combo and things like that.... but as I have stated we have tried already most ideas out there...


The SCT "two step", or a real one? And you're implication here is that simply not using a two step is going to get Jamie into the 11.4s and Jonathan into the 11.5s?
Bob
I did not imply that at all... what I said was that you guys are comparing my numbers (not using one) to the 5.0L who are and saying they help to make up that amount..
If not using the two step will make a 5.0L run any better you need to take that number out of your 1 to 1.5 tenth separation

What about the new G-Force trans is everyone using them are they better then what you have?

All little things add up..

[Ian Mullane]

Loosened up quite a bit? What, 58cc to 52cc?
What's that worth? Since you guys are now experts on push rods and how far they can go. You tell us.

A few people said the Atco mph was bs. We can let Denny speak on that one.

Hard data was shown through out the season by me and now Bob.
It's not BS, It's fact.

The work harder BS line is getting old.
You spewed it last year and most of this year.
Lemme get my boots on.

Head cc wasn't the only thing changed Ken. I'm not going to point out everything I see you guys doing wrong or different than I would but there is plenty.:)
Can you honestly say you worked as hard or harder than us this year???

I'll keep spewing it until I see someone step up.

[stangfireman]

Shawn,
I didn't use the two step at first because I couldn't do two things at once. LOL
My comment about spinning was refering to launching higher then 3400. Every time I tried, it spun. You seen a 5000rpm launch in Columbus 2004. I had a .024 light to your .280 something. But my 60ft went from a 1.61 to a 2.0 My only chance to win an event and I blow it. LOL

Now for the cc and no deck rule. I know for a fact that the pistons will need notches for the 52cc and the old deck rule. And I'm sure this takes away some compression. Does the smaller chamber make up for the notches in the pistons? I'm sure you know as much about this as I do. Because I have no idea. Maybe that's why no one ran faster this year besides you. :)

[KenCook]

Why don't you tell us Shawn's RWHP..I mean come on, Bob posted his last year.
Jamie told you guys what he was making.
Your amongst friends .:D

I think that is precisely the point Shawn is trying to make. You should be telling us what it is worth because you should have tried it. Obviously you haven't. If you're not willing to take advantage of the current rules, how can you complain?

[Mark Keiser]

I think it is very hard to compare dyno numbers unless it is the same dyo, same place, and same operator.

[Jamie R.]

Bob thank you for the numbers break down, I forgot about thanking you earlier for that. I do not think a 5 liter maxed out will compete with a maxed out 4 valve under the current rules. At least Holten told you 335 because he told me 310. Sad to say but this class is heading rapidly to where my ole' Trophy Stock class ended up.....nobody else showing up. Smartest thing I could do is sell my car and I keep asking myself why in the hell I don't. Ken C., Bob's ole' 99 made more power than my '01 because it also had headers and no cats. Here's another comparison just for giggles. My '01 with the stock 3.27's on street tires has went a 13.18 @ 108mph before the tune was installed on the dyno and actually that is when it was making only 286 to the tires!! You will have to spend shortblock dollars and then the head dollars along with a gear to get over 108mph in a F/S car. I will hit 12's on street tires with the '01 before I put drag radials on it or gears. Having this '01 Cobra has really opened my eyes up as to just how far apart the two cars are. Stock cam to stock cam, the 4 valve will continue to win in this class. The rpm advantage is nice also.

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[Fast Orange]

The following is the average best ET for the 3(4) Modular's that competed in 2005:

Read: FL/GA/MI/PA/KC/IL/NJ/OH/BG

Shawn Average: 11.56/11.67/11.67/11.57/11.49/11.51/11.51/11.47/11.36 = 11.53

Jeff Average: 11.54/11.59/11.53/11.67/11.70/11.77/11.64/11.71/11.56 = 11.63

Carlos/Ryan Average: 11.59/11.78/11.68/0.00/0.00/11.95/11.85/0.00/11.60 = 11.74

Average: 11.63


I like your calculations Bob. I think your leaving out some small details that squew your average abit though....

Jeff ran 50's for the first 3 races, then changed motors. The car should have picked up, but something wasn't quite right and it slowed down...

Carlos came out running 50's, and should have picked up with more seat time. Instead some bugs in his "Program" made the car slower and slower every race, until he left it at home and brought the 5 liter out. (maybe it was the blond hair!)

If Ryan would have been at 7 races and Carlos didn't have problems, the top 4 in points would all be 4v's.

[Fast Orange]

No one is arguing that point. That's the reason the pushrod has the 250 lb. weight break.

I guess the question is, how much do you think a 5.0 can make totally maxed out?

Ken

250#'s is like giving us 25 Flywheel HP.... Are you saying a maxed out 4V only makes 25 more ponies than a maxed out 5 liter?

What about Intakes? Does a 4V intake port mismatch the heads like an untouched Cobra. The Cobra intake is roughly .200 smaller than a Felpro 1250 gasket (a 1250 does match a GT40 head).

[Shawn Johnson]

Sad to say but this class is heading rapidly to where my ole' Trophy Stock class ended up.....nobody else showing up.

Jamie R.
F/S 6500


You realy think that the class will fall apart without a rule change???

Didn't we here that before..

[Ranger50]

So far, 5.0's still breathe through a 70mm TB into a 65mm intake to a 1.25(?)" diameter intake port through, what 26, 27 " of runner length (?), to a 1.84" diameter valve. Going form 58 to 52 cc's ain't gonna mean crap if you can't either shorten the intake path, or enlarge the intake path's cross sectional area. It just can't flow any more air. It has GREAT velocity, good for torque, but it has zero volume to maintain any RPM, especially when you still have to run a "stock" HO cam. Something a 4v has an abundance of......

So where do we go, George, where do we go? ;)

[Jamie R.]

One more thing, dropping the 5 liter weight down as light as we are it has not exactly done wonders for making these cars hook on drag radials or at least be consistent. Seems like the cars hooked better when they were heavier because we had some weight to work with. Any other 5 liters experiencing problems with traction?

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[Shawn Johnson]

250#'s is like giving us 25 Flywheel HP.... Are you saying a maxed out 4V only makes 25 more ponies than a maxed out 5 liter?

What about Intakes? Does a 4V intake port mismatch the heads like an untouched Cobra. The Cobra intake is roughly .200 smaller than a Felpro 1250 gasket (a 1250 does match a GT40 head).


250# = 25 flywheel Hp

I did not know that.....
I think that number is off some...

Intake mismatch.... yes... to get the heads milled down to the rules it moves the heads in a lot and the ports have a big mismatch.. so much we can't use the stock gasket I have to make one out of a blank sheet..

[Shawn Johnson]

Well

What if any changes would the 5.0L think would even the rules out ounce and for all...

[Jamie R.]

Umm I've not looked at the numbers, so maybe Bob can grace us with that but I don't think this class has replaced most all the people that have dropped out of it. Where do you see this class in 2 to 3 years Shawn? Oh the other class did'nt dry up overnight but it did eventually.

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[Fast Orange]

250# = 25 flywheel Hp

I did not know that.....
I think that number is off some...

Intake mismatch.... yes... to get the heads milled down to the rules it moves the heads in a lot and the ports have a big mismatch.. so much we can't use the stock gasket I have to make one out of a blank sheet..

Are the 4V ports the same size Intake to head??? The Cobra intake is alot smaller than the head.

[Jonathan Paulk]

I just sent my motor to get refreshened. I know that I will more than likely not be competive if I race my car; I have a small budget (Air Force pay). I am going to put it back together, there is something about racing your car. If I do not drive the green car next season I will be at Bradenton in mine. I would like to test it before then, but the tracks here do not open untill after the FL race. If I am not competive in my car I am done. I do not have and will never have the money to finance a competive race car. I will race it local or try to sell it.....and put a down payment on a 99-01 Cobra....HE HE HE I have always wanted one....

I am very satisfied/proud with my racing this year and last year. I used to flip through the pages of 5.0 and Muscle Mustang and dream about racing with the people of NMRA. I have made some great friends with people I looked up to and still look up to as Kings/Heroes of heads up Mustang/Ford drag racing. We are the force behind the Mustang aftermarket.

I believe the 4V is a far superior motor.....Tech needs to get this through their heads, or you will see just 4Vs show up to race. Just look at what HP Jamie's Cobra makes. We are not mad at you Shawn or any other 4V racer. We just don't think the rules are fair....I raced the last two years on hardly any money, did you take a close look at my car last season? Mostly every thing in it was USED, very used!!! The stock T-5 had 160k miles. All of the suspension and rearend was brand new though, hell, I just paid off my bill at JPC!!!! The green car on the other hand has very nice stuff. Even with the motor getting freshened up, I dont believe it/a pushrod will ever run .30s. I have some ideas for rule revisions that I will be sending in before PRI. I will show you them at PRI. I do not care if you will like/agree with them or not. Untill there is some changes I think that a pushrod will never win a race again....GO AHEAD FLAME AWAY!!!!

[Shawn Johnson]

Umm I've not looked at the numbers, so maybe Bob can grace us with that but I don't think this class has replaced most all the people that have dropped out of it. Where do you see this class in 2 to 3 years Shawn? Oh the other class did'nt dry up overnight but it did eventually.

Jamie R.
F/S 6500
Well I'm not interested in two or three ... only next year...
I would like the rules to stay the same for one more year to see if any gains can be made by the 5.0L and to see if they have used the rules they have been given..
Will it kill the class next year ...no I don't think so..

[Fast Orange]

Well

What if any changes would the 5.0L think would even the rules out ounce and for all...

I think the 4V's should run the race wieght of an 03 or 04 Cobra....

3900#'s w/ driver sounds good. He He He!:D

[KenB]

I like your calculations Bob. I think your leaving out some small details that squew your average abit though....

Jeff ran 50's for the first 3 races, then changed motors. The car should have picked up, but something wasn't quite right and it slowed down...

Carlos came out running 50's, and should have picked up with more seat time. Instead some bugs in his "Program" made the car slower and slower every race, until he left it at home and brought the 5 liter out. (maybe it was the blond hair!)

If Ryan would have been at 7 races and Carlos didn't have problems, the top 4 in points would all be 4v's.



Jeez,

You telling us we can't use woulda, coulda shoulda's but that's exactly what you are trying to do.

[KenB]

250#'s is like giving us 25 Flywheel HP.... Are you saying a maxed out 4V only makes 25 more ponies than a maxed out 5 liter?

What about Intakes? Does a 4V intake port mismatch the heads like an untouched Cobra. The Cobra intake is roughly .200 smaller than a Felpro 1250 gasket (a 1250 does match a GT40 head).

Actually it's much closer to rwhp. And yes, I think a maxed out 5.0 can come within 25 rwhp of what Shawn is making. I can't say what he's making because that's not my place.


And we can't starting comparing port size, intake matching etc. It's just doesn't apply. Totally different combo's.

The real think to debate is power potential.

[KenB]

So far, 5.0's still breathe through a 70mm TB into a 65mm intake to a 1.25(?)" diameter intake port through, what 26, 27 " of runner length (?), to a 1.84" diameter valve. Going form 58 to 52 cc's ain't gonna mean crap if you can't either shorten the intake path, or enlarge the intake path's cross sectional area. It just can't flow any more air. It has GREAT velocity, good for torque, but it has zero volume to maintain any RPM, especially when you still have to run a "stock" HO cam. Something a 4v has an abundance of......

So where do we go, George, where do we go? ;)

Again, the perfect arguement to support our claims. No testing. Put your calculators away and start wrenching. If we did everything to Shawn's engine based on what should happen and what the calculators tell us, we would still be running what all the other 4v's are running. :)

[KenCook]

Pushrods cant afford one more year of being out muscled.
I'm not going to waste my time and money or Carlos's time & money going around the country knowing we don't stand a chance with the Trooper.
I'm sure Denny, Jonathan, Jamie, Scott and the rest feel the same.


You only seem to care about next year.
Then you will say no mid season rule change.

So after the class is dead you move on?
I was a fan of this class way before I thought of racing in it.
It would be a shame to see it slowly go away. Which it's on course to do.

Well I'm not interested in two or three ... only next year...
I would like the rules to stay the same for one more year to see if any gains can be made by the 5.0L and to see if they have used the rules they have been given..
Will it kill the class next year ...no I don't think so..

[Jonathan Paulk]

Just read my post again Kenny....

BTW Ken Bejones when did your PS 4V car run 10.30s?

[Ranger50]

Just read my post again Kenny....

BTW Ken Bejones when did your PS 4V car run 10.30s?

He ran it at a local Cincy track in KILLER air. ;) I saw the video. :D

[KenB]

Just read my post again Kenny....

BTW Ken Bejones when did your PS 4V car run 10.30s?


:)

It was light also

--------shameless plug-------------
http://videos.modulardepot.com/ken1031.wmv

[KenCook]

Pure Street next year will be like F/S this year.


He ran it at a local Cincy track in KILLER air. ;) I saw the video. :D

[Ranger50]

Again, the perfect arguement to support our claims. No testing. Put your calculators away and start wrenching. If we did everything to Shawn's engine based on what should happen and what the calculators tell us, we would still be running what all the other 4v's are running. :)


I would GLADLY put away my "calculator", if 1+1=2, but in this case it still doesn't. With the given valve area, port volume, cam lift, duration, et al, and current rules, the pushrod motor will be behind. These are also some of the factors making the 2v a backwater marker. In a nutshell, the solution isn't simple or easily solvable.

So again, where do we go George, where do we go?

[KenB]

Pure Street next year will be like F/S this year.


Made an avatar for you, it will help people decipher your posts










http://www.modulardepot.com/crybaby.jpg


:)

Let's not forget, Modulars have been in Mustangs for 10 years now, not one single 5.0 has been. Time to come to terms with the fact that eventually, the 5.0 will be in the minority.

[Shawn Johnson]

Pushrods cant afford one more year of being out muscled.
I'm not going to waste my time and money or Carlos's time & money going around the country knowing we don't stand a chance with the Trooper.
I'm sure Denny, Jonathan, Jamie, Scott and the rest feel the same.


You only seem to care about next year.
Then you will say no mid season rule change.

So after the class is dead you move on?
I was a fan of this class way before I thought of racing in it.
It would be a shame to see it slowly go away. Which it's on course to do.

The class is not going to die even if the rules stay the same and its not going down hill now....

[Fast Orange]

One more thing, dropping the 5 liter weight down as light as we are it has not exactly done wonders for making these cars hook on drag radials or at least be consistent. Seems like the cars hooked better when they were heavier because we had some weight to work with. Any other 5 liters experiencing problems with traction?

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

Yeah, I can't hook. I need ET Streets.:D

[Jonathan Paulk]

You might want to change your sig, Ken. Some people associate the times in sigs as NMRA legal........

[Jamie R.]

I forgot to congratulate you Ken on the P/S 4 valve. That is fast in P/S for the first built 4 valve!!! I would have waited and got the X cal 2 from you guys for my Cobra instead of this predator if the x cal 2 would have went ahead and came out. Thanks for answering my questions about the xcal when I asked ( it was you or Brandon). I think you guys do some nice work from what I've seen and heard!! I have recommened you guys to some friends of mine for there Machs.

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

[KenB]

I forgot to congratulate you Ken on the P/S 4 valve. That is fast in P/S for the first built 4 valve!!! I would have waited and got the X cal 2 from you guys for my Cobra instead of this predator if the x cal 2 would have went ahead and came out. Thanks for answering my questions about the xcal when I asked ( it was you or Brandon). I think you guys do some nice work from what I've seen and heard!! I have recommened you guys to some friends of mine for there Machs.

Jamie R.
F/S 6500

Thanks for the recommendations, that's really what drives our business.

Jonathon,

You may be right, but I'm proud of what it ran so I'm leaving it. It's up to the NMRA to use their head when making the rules. They should only consider what was run at an event, not what someone ran at a local test and tune. They have no way of knowing what my setup was during that pass.

Ken

[Dennis Merrow]

here's a little list of what I have done this year with my pushrod..
-tested about a dozen clutches
-tested 4.10,4.30,4.56
-tested several intakes
-tested my cam in about every position
-tested different pistons
-tested different valve train
-tested every wednesday this year at local track
-lightened just about every rotating part on the car
-tested mass air vs speed density
-tested 19#24#30# injectors
-tested pro-m vs c&l
-big radial vs little radial
-tested different oil pumps
-tested about every valve spring out there
I have my own chassis dyno so have had plenty of tunning time and data gathered .
I don't know how others got 350 at the wheels but mine doesn't make that much.
so I think I put in a good effort with my combo.

[Bob Cosby]

Jeez....go to dinner for a couple of hours and look what happens. :)

Too much quoting for me (I know, its a shock) so I'll reply to each with just a few thoughts.

Ian...my friend...it does you no service to imply that you guys worked harder than anybody else. You may indeed have - but I'd never, ever claim such.

I don't think the 5.0s have made significantly more power now than they did in 2002. Take that however you wish, but I think it is pretty good evidence that the powerplants (at least) are about as powerful as they are going to get.

Deepstaging might hurt by a couple hundreths, but in my experience, it was never near a tenth. Even so, nobody deep stages in qualifying runs, and many of the best ETs are there. Regardless, the numbers are what they are. They are factual and indisputable (excepting my goof with Carlos' numbers).

I'm friends with both Jeff and Carlos, and of course, with their engine builder. I'm sure they wouldn't want to have anybody to catch. However, that is racing. We've all been there.

Shawn...there were no assumptions in the numbers I posted. None. If there is more information out there to be had, I'd love to see it. How about we start with your best dyno pull? Care to share? Somehow I'm doubting it (understandable), and as such, I wouldn't expect the 5.0 guys to share much with you. That leaves us with performance on the track, at which point we're back to those numbers again.

You and Jeff both ran better than the top 5.0. Look at my numbers again if you need to. Further, the difference between the top 5.0 and the top modular, and the 2nd 5.0 and the 2nd modular, and the 3rd 5.0 and the third modular all show the same trend. I'm not making this up - it is all there for anybody to see or research on their own.

You say that you only have a couple of HP left in your combo, yet the 5.0s have more? That is a very, very big assumption, for which I can find almost no evidence. To the contrary, and as mentioned above, there is plenty of evidence that little is left in the 5.0s, but more could be left in the Modulars, simply because they are still going faster each year (even with 75 lbs more weight).

Finally...of course you're interested in only next year, as you want to win again. Come on now, be honest: You don't want the rules to change because you want to have the best chance of winning. Perfectly understandable, so please don't try to say you don't want them to change in order to see how fast the 5.0s can go. I think we have a pretty good idea where that plateau is.

Scott...I am aware of Carlos' mid-season problems, but I think it right and fair to only use actual numbers vice coulda/woulda and shoulda.

Ken...I suppose nobody but you can say if a 5.0 can get within 25 RWHP of Shawn or not, as only you folks know what he makes (though I can run a calculator and get pretty close). That said, personally, I don't think there's a chance in hell of getting a 5.0 that close, and I am quite sure you'll never get one to turn anywhere near 7000+ rpm with these rules.

BTW, those are awesome numbers...big congrats! :)

Bob

[KenB]

Ken...I suppose nobody but you can say if a 5.0 can get within 25 RWHP of Shawn or not, as only you folks know what he makes (though I can run a calculator and get pretty close). That said, personally, I don't think there's a chance in hell of getting a 5.0 that close, and I am quite sure you'll never get one to turn anywhere near 7000+ rpm with these rules.

BTW, those are awesome numbers...big congrats! :)

Bob

Thanks Bob.

BTW, I don't know Shawn's numbers. John guards the monitor and just say "more" or "less" LOL

Ken

[KenCook]

Decipher what?
WTF is that supposed to mean?

You know what Ken, Why dont you let Shawn handle the F/S debate ok?
Dont you have a p/s class to worry about.

Made an avatar for you, it will help people decipher your posts










http://www.modulardepot.com/crybaby.jpg


:)

Let's not forget, Modulars have been in Mustangs for 10 years now, not one single 5.0 has been. Time to come to terms with the fact that eventually, the 5.0 will be in the minority.

[Ian Mullane]

I think the 4V's should run the race wieght of an 03 or 04 Cobra....

3900#'s w/ driver sounds good. He He He!:D

Might be able to drag the bumper then.:eek: How much ballast can you leagally run?

[Ian Mullane]

here's a little list of what I have done this year with my pushrod..
-tested about a dozen clutches
-tested 4.10,4.30,4.56
-tested several intakes
-tested my cam in about every position
-tested different pistons
-tested different valve train
-tested every wednesday this year at local track
-lightened just about every rotating part on the car
-tested mass air vs speed density
-tested 19#24#30# injectors
-tested pro-m vs c&l
-big radial vs little radial
-tested different oil pumps
-tested about every valve spring out there
I have my own chassis dyno so have had plenty of tunning time and data gathered .
I don't know how others got 350 at the wheels but mine doesn't make that much.
so I think I put in a good effort with my combo.

Denny I totally agree that you gave it a good shot. With the right clutch and a little more practice behind that stick you might have been the top pushrod car this year. I'd love to hear what you'ed like to see happen to the rules. Thats of course if your coming back next year. Wish you could have made BG.

We are all beating a dead horse here (wish I had Mikes little smiley). Lets here some suggested rules changes.

[KenB]

Decipher what?
WTF is that supposed to mean?

You know what Ken, Why dont you let Shawn handle the F/S debate ok?
Dont you have a p/s class to worry about.

Calm down. I was just trying to add a little humor.

I'm a proud member of Shawn's team. That's how we have gotten where we have, we work together. ;)

[CarlosSobrino]

Wow, go away for a weekend.... I wont say much except that whoever believes the pushrods are competitive must want to win another championship (easily).
But enough mud slinging and more positive input.
1) Leave the 4v rules as they are
2) Lets concentrate on helping the pushrods and if the rules by any chance favor them, we can always have them changed midseason.

Engine wise I believe the pushrods are pretty much maxed out. If Justins JPC team and Dennis's efforts haven't proven that, then no one will. So my only real idea is to help the pushrods in weight, suspension and weight transfer.
5.0 rules suggestions
1) Tubular K-members w/ fr coilovers
2) Manual p/s
3) 100 pound weight reduction
I know I know, "Intent of the class", lets get real. My ideas pretty much keep everyones engine programs as is, and lets say for some strange chance the pushrods run too fast with my suggestions weight can always be added.

To cover some previous comments.
86 5.0 coupe will ET and MPH faster WITHOUT using the 2-step. Realize you are "flooding" the plugs prior to launching, but it does make it easier to launch but NOT faster.
I sidelined the Cobra simply because I had hurt the motor and HAVE the option of using my other F/S car and figured I already knew the 4v's potential on a fresh motor but hadn't found the LX's potential, hence the switch.
I hear the pushrod guys are "whining". Seems like only one team has been whining and they have no pushrods.
In closing, Scott, the "blonde Hair" was an attempt to make me faster, all that did was get me free drinks from funny looking dudes (funnier looking than me).

[Ian Mullane]

I hear the pushrod guys are "whining". Seems like only one team has been whining and they have no pushrods.


Is that whining or winning Carlos:p

No whining here just go ole off season politics. In the end I doubt it means much anyway but it gives me a way to waste alot of time at work.

I wouldn't be totally opposed to your suggestions but like I said before, I don't pay the bills. Keep in mind that coil over front suspension is just another thing to spend a lot of time testing. Just out of curiosity, how much ballast are some of you guys running?

BTW, how can you have manual power steering?? :)

[KenCook]

Lets face it.
The powers to be (NMRA) will do what they want with the rules.

The debate part here is good until it gets personal.

In closing, Scott, the "blonde Hair" was an attempt to make me faster, all that did was get me free drinks from funny looking dudes (funnier looking than me).


Ed was there?
I thought you said short and funny looking. Sorry. :D

[Shawn Johnson]

No one is whining here just discussing the subject of rules....

It is something that we need to be talked about by all of us in the open and debated by all sides.....
and Carlos what’s with this win another championship easily I didn't win it easily this year and even if the 4vs have an advantage Jeff and Ryan will be stronger as well as your 4v next year.... so I don't know how you can say that it would be easy for me if the rules stayed the same........

The NMRA will not make a change that will make the class any closer to pure street like K-Members and coil overs... I can be sure of that....

Denny we knew you were putting a good effort together this year and thanks for coming on here to tell us more about it... That is a lot of testing and I know where you are coming from.... I wish I had that dyno in my garage but then I would have to get Ken to come up here... but anyway I hope your coming back next year....

[Ranger50]

Is that whining or winning Carlos:p

No whining here just go ole off season politics. In the end I doubt it means much anyway but it gives me a way to waste alot of time at work.

I wouldn't be totally opposed to your suggestions but like I said before, I don't pay the bills. Keep in mind that coil over front suspension is just another thing to spend a lot of time testing. Just out of curiosity, how much ballast are some of you guys running?

BTW, how can you have manual power steering?? :)


I know more then what is legally allowed by NHRA, 250#, for ballast.

Coilovers, just another way to keep the k-member off the ground, besides using the stock location. Big deal. If you are not out testing springs/struts/shocks, you are wasting your time testing anything else. IMO.

Manual power steering? Easy just leave the pump off and use the power rack. :p :D

The only reason I am intently following this thread and replying to it, is to find out what may shake out of this discussion. I have an ex-9 sec chassis in the drive and already has been worked over and would LOVE to know the amount of "stockification" I must do to participate.

Brian

[Shawn Johnson]

I think the only thing that the NMRA would change right now would be weight.
What do you 5.0L guys think would be fair?

[Rey]

I think the only thing that the NMRA would change right now would be weight.
What do you 5.0L guys think would be fair?
Hey Shawn

PM sent......

Rey

[Jonathan Paulk]

Here is real quick rule sugestions for 5.0...

3-inch crank race pulley
Manual steering
Tubular K-member and arms, no coil-overs.
More intake options, similar to RS....Trick Flow Street Heat, Edelbrock RPM, etc...
3100 race weight.....

That's all for now....

[Bob Cosby]

Taken all together, I think that's a bit much, Johnathan. The intake option - by itself - is interesting though. Might liven things up a bit.

[Jonathan Paulk]

Hey, they are sugestions......The more you give NMRA, the more of a chance that they might just use one....

[Ranger50]

What do you 5.0L guys think would be fair?

I, personally, would like to see a greater choice of intakes, think contingency money.... BIG stretch here, but I would like to see what the GT40 aluminums would do. They aren't world beaters, VERY stockish for an alumimum head, and aren't out of the reach of anybody. 60cc chambers for those too and maybe you would have to add a penalty for using them, I am not against it.

Now back to reality, I would just like to see the ability of moving the weight around again. Even if it is just allowing coilovers with the stock k-member, ala 3 or 4 yr ago Pure Street rules.

Just my $2.00 comments (thanks Carlos ;))
Brian

[Ranger50]

Oh I forgot!!!!

Bring back the AOD weight BREAK!!!!! :)

Brian

[jbi66]

Intake mismatch.... yes... to get the heads milled down to the rules it moves the heads in a lot and the ports have a big mismatch.. so much we can't use the stock gasket I have to make one out of a blank sheet..

This is true. I was wondering when this would be brought up. Does a bigger missmatch in intake port alignment over weigh having the ability to mill to 52cc's? Turbulence in the combustion chamber doesnt increase hp. Is this where a rule change of allowing different intakes for the pushrods could push them closer to the .30's? On the other hand, then its not quite factory stock and who's to say where that line is drawn? Who am I to comment then anyway? Im just a newbie.:)

[Rey]

Turbulence in the combustion chamber doesnt increase hp. Is this where a rule change of allowing different intakes for the pushrods could push them closer to the .30's? On the other hand, then its not quite factory stock and who's to say where that line is drawn? Who am I to comment then anyway? Im just a newbie.:)

Not a blast on you jbi66:)



The term Factory Stock in this class really is really not fitting any longer. This class is so far off from "Factory" that it isn't funny. A lot of people keep saying no allowances when it comes to certain parts. They say this because this is an entry level class. That is the lamest argument in the world. Especially when it is a class where if you don't have a good amount of money invested in just a short block you won’t run with the pack. Not to mention all of the other stuff. Hell I remember when I had my pushrod cars the first mod was heads, intake, and cam. Not saying that these should be allowed, but to argue that don't add these parts to the rules because it takes away from the class is simply silly. Hell Shawn is running as fast as some pure street racers that made the top ten. Which is very cool considering this is a "Factory" stock class. I bring this up because there will be people out there arguing when all of these new rules petitions come out saying this very same thing.

[Shawn Johnson]

I don't think the NMRA is worried about the class being closer to factory stock but they do want it to stay apart from Pure street. They want the cars and the class to look at be different...

So that is why I say I don't think they would change K-memebers and things like that..

They put some weight on the 5.0L and I think that is the only thing they will adjust..

[KenCook]

I don't think only taking off weight will help much.

More intakes to choose from looks like a cheaper fix then going internal.

I don't think the NMRA is worried about the class being closer to factory stock but they do want it to stay apart from Pure street. They want the cars and the class to look at be different...

So that is why I say I don't think they would change K-memebers and things like that..

They put some weight on the 5.0L and I think that is the only thing they will adjust..

[MP-Mike]

We are all beating a dead horse here (wish I had Mikes little smiley).


Here you go Ian.:D

http://ciarraide.org/images/smilies/new_beatingdeadhorse.gif

[Shawn Johnson]

I think the best changes should be cheap and easy to do...

This is what I would agree to support:

1 - manual streering for all combos..
2 - 75# weight brake for 5.0L
3 - Have every one talk the 2v valves into chnging to 4vs because I don't have a clue how to help them....

Here is my reason for the just the weight...
The 5.0L added 50#s to them since last year but were given some work they could do to the motor...
The 5.0L are running as good as they did in 2004 as per Bobs numbers..
I will assume as Bob wants me to that the 5.0L have taken advatage of the changes and that is why they are still running the same with adding the 50#.

In conclusion: taking the 50# off pluss 25# the 5.0L will be running faster becuase they were able to work at that weight in 04.
Taking some weight out of the front with the manual steering will help also..

Can I get anyone to agree...?

[Bob Cosby]

No, I don't think that would get anybody anywhere.

1) Manual steering for all combos doesn't change anything relative to each other.

2) 75 lbs less ballast will help a bit on the big end, hurt on the front end. Net result will be minimal (we saw this last year when they got 150 lbs mid season). That said, this is indeed the most likely scenario the NMRA will try.

3) 2Vs need to be able to port the heads. Only thing I can think of.

I agree with the suggestions previously given above - open up the intake possibilities for the 5.0s and let them add 10-15 HP, along with a couple hundred rpm. Killing a little low end power while adding a bit up top will help at both ends of the track.

[KenCook]

50lbs and a few intakes for the 5.0 sounds pretty good to me. Mimic P/S's intake choices?

How much can the 2v gain from porting?

No, I don't think that would get anybody anywhere.

1) Manual steering for all combos doesn't change anything relative to each other.

2) 75 lbs less ballast will help a bit on the big end, hurt on the front end. Net result will be minimal (we saw this last year when they got 150 lbs mid season). That said, this is indeed the most likely scenario the NMRA will try.

3) 2Vs need to be able to port the heads. Only thing I can think of.

I agree with the suggestions previously given above - open up the intake possibilities for the 5.0s and let them add 10-15 HP, along with a couple hundred rpm. Killing a little low end power while adding a bit up top will help at both ends of the track.

[Shawn Johnson]

No, I don't think that would get anybody anywhere.

1) Manual steering for all combos doesn't change anything relative to each other.

2) 75 lbs less ballast will help a bit on the big end, hurt on the front end. Net result will be minimal (we saw this last year when they got 150 lbs mid season). That said, this is indeed the most likely scenario the NMRA will try.

3) 2Vs need to be able to port the heads. Only thing I can think of.

I agree with the suggestions previously given above - open up the intake possibilities for the 5.0s and let them add 10-15 HP, along with a couple hundred rpm. Killing a little low end power while adding a bit up top will help at both ends of the track.

The manual steering I asked for is just to get rid of it... it does't help one combo more then the other beside taking some weight off the front for the 5.0L guys... We have to run so much weight right now a little off the front isn't going to help as much as it would them..

Now the weight deal is where I would have to disagree with you... for the reasons I've stated...
First off I think the 5.0L are less then a tenth behind so I think 75# will get them there...
Like I stated they are running the same ETwith 50#s added take 75#s off and they will be running faster...
Lets go back to Jamies 60' times from last year... he was running 50's in the 60's and that is just what I am are running now... and he was at the lighter weight so it can be done...

Shawn

[Bob Cosby]

Ken...no idea what could be gained from porting. I can ask Jason Steen, but then again, I think I'll let the NMRA do their own homework, LOL.

I wouldn't do weight and intakes - just intakes.

The manual steering I asked for is just to get rid of it... it does't help one combo more then the other beside taking some weight off the front for the 5.0L guys... We have to run so much weight right now a little off the front isn't going to help as much as it would them..
I have no idea how much weight either you have in the back, or someone like Jamie has in the back. Do you know how much Jamie has in the back of his car? If you don't, then its pretty hard to say one way or the other.

Now the weight deal is where I would have to disagree with you... for the reasons I've stated...
First off I think the 5.0L are less then a tenth behind so I think 75# will get them there...
The numbers do not support your thinking. Only you and I have run 11.4s or better. You have gone 11.36. The quickest 5.0 pass ever is 11.54. Do the math, and leave off "potential" and "coulda/shoulda/woulda". You and I didn't play that game in 2004 when we were bucking the mid season rule changes, so it would be hypocritical as hell to do it now.

Further, the second fastest Modular (Jeff) has gone quicker than 11.54. I'm sorry, but I don't see where you're getting this "less than a tenth" idea from. Even if I did see it, I don't believe 75#s would get them there. It never has in the past (most recently last year).

Like I stated they are running the same ETwith 50#s added take 75#s off and they will be running faster...
Why are they running just as fast this year with the extra 50#s? Could it be that the top guys are taking advantage of the slight rules changes they got this year - making up for the slight change in weight? The same rule changes that some are trying to say they DIDN'T take advantage of? Can't have it both ways.

Further, you're running half a tenth quicker this year after adding 75 lbs - on a combo you say is maxed out.

We don't even want to get into average MPH comparisons between the two.

Regardless - with no other changes, I don't know of any data that would show the 5.0s would be competitive with the Modulars with only a 75# weight break. I do think it would allow you to have an easy time with the 5.0s next year.

Lets go back to Jamies 60' times from last year... he was running 50's in the 60's and that is just what I am are running now... and he was at the lighter weight so it can be done...
I agree it can be done. I also see that with those stellar 60 fts, he is running mid 11.5s. On stellar 60 fts, what ET are you running? What was your 60 ft on that 11.36? Care to share the timeslip?

Shawn I understand that you don't want parity - you want to win. I want to see great racing, and because of where I sit, I don't have to look through any of those trees to peer into the forest. It's simply a different perspective - backed up by cold, hard, indisputable, verifiable ET numbers.

Bob

[KenB]

Bob,

I can agree with you on most points, but saying that the weight won't help because it didn't before is not fair. It probably didn't work before because no one put enough time into messing with their suspension.

If a Drag Radial category car can get out of the hole ok, I don't see what a lighter 5.0 Factory stock can't. It's just going to take alot of testing. With that said, I hate drag radials, slicks are much easier. :)


Ken

[vrtical]

50lbs and a few intakes for the 5.0 sounds pretty good to me. Mimic P/S's intake choices?

How much can the 2v gain from porting?

not enough with OEM cam specs. Most ported 2v's with decent cams are making 315-330 range.

[KenB]

At the current weight, with head porting, I think the right person can make a 2V work.

Doug,

You can't use what the average numbers are when you are talking about a heads up car. With the attention to detail that a heads up car should have, you should always make more than what the average guy can make.

[KenCook]

Come on Ken, You cant compare a DR car with a F/S car.

Being that Carlos tuned both this year, he can give a good opinion on which was more difficult to get the most out of his 60' foot et's with. Cobra or 5.0

I remember Shawns 11.39 pass on me in BG.
His 60' was not one of his better ones.

[Rey]

At the current weight, with head porting, I think the right person can make a 2V work.

Doug,

You can't use what the average numbers are when you are talking about a heads up car. With the attention to detail that a heads up car should have, you should always make more than what the average guy can make.

Hey KenB,
PM sent

Rey

[Shawn Johnson]

Bob you need to stop changing my word around and YES your are…
Now you are making this debate personal because you are changing to insults… because I feel that the 5.0L are not has handicapped as you you say I must not want parity… I will not take that shit from you or anyone else…. I have my opinion of the rules… right or wrong it is my opinion.. if you want to change my opinion as how handicapped they are then debate it with me don’t try to insult me when I state my side….


The numbers do not support your thinking. Only you and I have run 11.4s or better. You have gone 11.36. The quickest 5.0 pass ever is 11.54. Do the math, and leave off "potential" and "coulda/shoulda/woulda". You and I didn't play that game in 2004 when we were bucking the mid season rule changes, so it would be hypocritical as hell to do it now.

Further, the second fastest Modular (Jeff) has gone quicker than 11.54. I'm sorry, but I don't see where you're getting this "less than a tenth" idea from. Even if I did see it, I don't believe 75#s would get them there. It never has in the past (most recently last year).
Bob

Not addressing the insults here I will address the numbers..
You stated back in this thread that the 5.0L were 1 tenth to 1.5 tenths handicapped… correct?... correct!
This is your math not mine…
Here is where I get mine:
Everyone here has a dead horse they are beating and here is mine…Carlos and Mr. stangfireamn have both agreed that not running a two step makes for a better ET…. How much I don’t know… lets say 500 thousandths. Since that is just a difference in driving style that difference needs to be taken out when a combo handicap is being determined.. Now we are down to .5 tenths to 1 tenth…
I split the difference and came up with .750 that would equal 75#s .
So as of right now I am in the middle of where you said they are handicapped…


Why are they running just as fast this year with the extra 50#s? Could it be that the top guys are taking advantage of the slight rules changes they got this year - making up for the slight change in weight? The same rule changes that some are trying to say they DIDN'T take advantage of? Can't have it both ways.
Bob

Ounce again not addressing the insults I will address the subject…
I never said that through this debate that my mind will not change or that I would not be open to data and proof to change my position…. It seems like I am the only one on here willing to see the other side….with out insults…

My position is that I don’t feel that they have been able to take FULL advantage of the rule changes yet….
If we look at the numbers the changes have helped them some… by your own admission it has… by stating that they are running as fast as last year with more weight… in that we must conclude that the changes did help some and through the normal math it would be .5 tenths (50#s = .5 tenths) This is a normal base everyone goes off of not just me….

So now we go back to my earlier math…
I feel that they are .75 tenths behind …. We can prove that they have picked up .5 tenths with the rule changes given (Full advantage or not has not been shown yet) ….
Concluding that taking off the 50#s will get them back the .5 tenths and another 25#s will make up the remaining .25...



Further, you're running half a tenth quicker this year after adding 75 lbs - on a combo you say is maxed out.
Bob

Ounce again I have to repeat myself… I didn’t say my combo is maxed out as far as I don’t think any combo is at any time… people always seem to come up with ideas to go faster… I don’t think there are any big gains from here though… As I said don’t change my words around…if I wasn’t clear enough for you maybe now I am…


We don't even want to get into average MPH comparisons between the two.
Bob


MPH comparisons don’t mean anything unless you are comparing the same combos to one another…One combo might make all the ET at the back end one might make all the ET in the front… means nothing… hell gearing will change MPH


Regardless - with no other changes, I don't know of any data that would show the 5.0s would be competitive with the Modulars with only a 75# weight break. I do think it would allow you to have an easy time with the 5.0s next year.
Bob

Here we are back to another insult… I will address the subject..
I think I do have enough data to show that it will…



I agree it can be done. I also see that with those stellar 60 fts, he is running mid 11.5s. On stellar 60 fts, what ET are you running? What was your 60 ft on that 11.36? Care to share the timeslip?
Bob

Do I care to… sure…
My 60’ was I believe a 54 on the 36 run….. or maybe a 55 but it was around there I would have to dig it out….
The conditions (Track and air) were great and I hit all the shift points were I was suppose to… The car hooked and we got the exact tire rotation we always search for…I shallow staged the car as much as I could…. The clutch gave us enough slippage to get through the shifts without loosing a lot of RPM …. (So much it came apart at the end )…. That was a clean, perfect pass…. Can I run that anywhere no… have I tried.. you bet ….that was a one event pass till we see those conditions again….

[KenCook]

The only insult I have seen on here is the never ending excuse for the 5.0's lack of performance that is being tossed around here.
You posted numerous time that the combo is not maxed out, the owners do not work hard enough. While it may not pertain completely to me being I only made 4 events, I view that as an insult to those guys that tried all year.
Denny clearly showed that he tried like hell to be competitive. I know all that Carlos tried.
I’m sure the others have as well.

[Ian Mullane]

Here you go Ian.:D

http://ciarraide.org/images/smilies/new_beatingdeadhorse.gif

Thanks Mike.

I sometimes forget about Denny since he rarely comes on here and for that I apologize. He definately worked hard this year and made big gains from last year. I do feel, however, that there is some et left in his combo. Just too inconsistant to be considered scienced out. I'd like to hear what he thinks would be fair. I could see the Trickflow street heat intake or Edelbrock performer being allowed but I'd keep the Holley Systemax out.

How many 5.0 guys put new pistons in their shortblocks this year to take advantage of the "loosened" rules? Lets be honest. I bet Denny did, anyone else?

How many 5.0 guys average in 1.5X range in the first 60 ft regardless of track conditions(and we've seen it all this year). Maybe Jamie? Denny might be close. It's not all in the weight. Many of the pushrod cars are putting as much or more ballast in than we are.

[Ian Mullane]

The only insult I have seen on here is the never ending excuse for the 5.0's lack of performance that is being tossed around here.
You posted numerous time that the combo is not maxed out, the owners do not work hard enough. While it may not pertain completely to me being I only made 4 events, I view that as an insult to those guys that tried all year.
Denny clearly showed that he tried like hell to be competitive. I know all that Carlos tried.
I’m sure the others have as well.

Who made every event this year?? Shawn, Jeff and I think John Leslie Jr.

I'm just full of questions. Sick or arguing for awhile:)

[Shawn Johnson]

The only insult I have seen on here is the never ending excuse for the 5.0's lack of performance that is being tossed around here.
You posted numerous time that the combo is not maxed out, the owners do not work hard enough. While it may not pertain completely to me being I only made 4 events, I view that as an insult to those guys that tried all year.
Denny clearly showed that he tried like hell to be competitive. I know all that Carlos tried.
I’m sure the others have as well.


That’s the only insult you see... I guess that is your opinion..

When I said I don't feel that the 5.0L have been working as hard/spending money on their stuff to get all they could out of it …is no insult unless you want it to be..
I also asked the guys to come on here and tell me different... Denny did and I stated that as far his project ..he has done more then I knew so my opinion of his effort has change..
This is one of those deals where someone states what they think is true and asked others to give more information to show that it isn't...
I have stated a good portion of what we have done to get to the ET...
I asked the 5.0 guys to give more information about what they have done… Specially the top guys…
I am on here to debate (I keep saying that word) a possible rule change. I have my opinion as to how much help the 5.0L need... you guys have yours. My job is to explain my side and yours is to explain your side… Neither should be insulting the other….Me stating that I think the 5.0L cars can run better or make up a good chuck of the separation with some more work and money does not constitute an insult

[Brandon Alsept]

Well not that I tried a huge amount of stuff last year with the ol nag of a F/S car we ran. But once the 150lbs came off I picked up a nice chunk in the car went from being in the 12.30s all year to a 12.04 @ Maple Grove. The car 60' better than ever with the extra 150 out of the car. Now this was no where near what some of the cars in the class are but just an example.

I say let the 5.0 guys run the intakes that are approved for R/S since it is the next evolutionary step kinda. This would most likely yield a good chunk of power. I am guessing probably around 20 or so rwhp since they are so corked up right now. But hey we shall see what the powers that be deem legal for next year.

[KenB]

Come on Ken, You cant compare a DR car with a F/S car.

Being that Carlos tuned both this year, he can give a good opinion on which was more difficult to get the most out of his 60' foot et's with. Cobra or 5.0

I remember Shawns 11.39 pass on me in BG.
His 60' was not one of his better ones.


I'll never convince you unless I prove it. So, tell Carlos to drop the car off here with a full tank and come back in a month. We'll get the car to hook.

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that car still running Speed Density with the stock rev limiter? I can take care of that also.

It's all in the details.

Ken

[Jonathan Paulk]

It probably didn't work before because no one put enough time into messing with their suspension.
Ken

You have no idea what you are talking about........why should I tell you my program? WE TRIED DIFFERENT SHOCKS, SPRINGS, and BALLAST LOCATION. The rest of our program is none of your or anybody elses damn business.....:mad: :mad: You are now insulting people, which is uncalled for. I don't give a rats a$$ that you sponsored the fastest Championship 4V FS and have the fastest 4V PS car....You have now lost all my respect I had for you.....

[Ian Mullane]

You have no idea what you are talking about........why should I tell you my program? WE TRIED DIFFERENT SHOCKS, SPRINGS, and BALLAST LOCATION. The rest of our program is none of your or anybody elses damn business.....:mad: :mad: You are now insulting people, which is uncalled for. I don't give a rats a$$ that you sponsored the fastest Championship 4V FS and have the fastest 4V PS car....You have now lost all my respect I had for you.....


Simmer down Jonothan. You're on the right track now getting rid of those balloons (275/60's). Maybe you spent alot of time on the suspension but there are other places to look. Lots of guys keep saying taking weight out hurts the 60 ft. Have any of you tried adding 100 lbs in testing just to see if it helps the car hook? Just thinking out loud.

[Jonathan Paulk]

Ummm, if we can't get to car to 60ft it won't run a number........That's all, the rest is classified....LOL LOL

[KenB]

You have no idea what you are talking about........why should I tell you my program? WE TRIED DIFFERENT SHOCKS, SPRINGS, and BALLAST LOCATION. The rest of our program is none of your or anybody elses damn business.....:mad: :mad: You are now insulting people, which is uncalled for. I don't give a rats a$$ that you sponsored the fastest Championship 4V FS and have the fastest 4V PS car....You have now lost all my respect I had for you.....

Calm down there chief. I never brought up your name, never asked about your program. But now that you do, are you saying just because you tried all those things that it's impossible to get that combo to hook? Since you tried, it's not possible?

If you are going to lose respect for be because of a general comment I made on the internet, then that really speaks volumes about you. Grow up.


Ken

[Jonathan Paulk]

Well you said "NO ONE PUT ENOUGH TIME IN THEIR SUSPENSION" didn't you?

[Shawn Johnson]

Ummm, if we can't get to car to 60ft it won't run a number........That's all, the rest is classified....LOL LOL


Have you guys ever talked with Jamie about his set up....
You have to addmit that whatever he has is working... it worked last year and this year... he is 60'ing just the same as us..... From what we here is that he is down on power when compared to the JPC motor.... you put those two together and I believe it would make some impressive ETS...

That is no insult to Jamies motor program either... this is just what more then one person has noted..

[KenCook]

I love it.
Team MD/MP are now full fledged experts in all fields of dragracing and can tell what everyone else is doing wrong.
pat yourselves on the back. Give each other an "atta boy"


Usually every year the slower combo racer comes on here to rant and rave about the rules.
This year its the winner doing it. Go figure.

There is no need to debate on here, You guys keep typing the same thing every post.

[Jonathan Paulk]

I talked to Jamie in BG about his setup and ours, totally different......motor and chassis....

[KenB]

Well you said "NO ONE PUT ENOUGH TIME IN THEIR SUSPENSION" didn't you?


No, I said:

It probably didn't work before because no one put enough time into messing with their suspension.


probably

adv 1: with considerable certainty; without much doubt; "He is probably out of the country"; "in all likelihood we are headed for war" [syn: likely, in all likelihood, in all probability, belike] 2: easy to believe on the basis of available evidence; "he talked plausibly before the committee"; "he will probably win the election" [syn: credibly, believably, plausibly] [ant: incredibly]


I have no idea what you have done, it was just a guess.

So answer my question

Since you tried all that stuff and can't get the car to 60', does that mean it is not possible?

[Brandon Alsept]

I love it.
Team MD/MP are now full fledged experts in all fields of dragracing and can tell what everyone else is doing wrong.
pat yourselves on the back. Give each other an "atta boy"


Usually every year the slower combo racer comes on here to rant and rave about the rules.
This year its the winner doing it. Go figure.

There is no need to debate on here, You guys keep typing the same thing every post.


You know I told myself no need to reply much in this thread, but hey what ya gonna do LOL.

They keep typing the same thing over and over because it is what you guys should be doing. They are giving friendly advice but you are taking it as an insult, or a stab at your programs. I know everyone in this thread fairly well and know that no one is trying to tell